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Old 08-11-2015, 10:26   #496
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Juho View Post
I think this new trend of avoiding greenhouse gas emissions is a real trend that also influences the way people sail or motor. I mean that some part of the sailors do believe that massive burning of fossil carbon is harmful to the nature and act accordingly.
Some think so, some think not, I don't really care either way. We sail every opportunity we get, we motor when necessary, which is usually when the wind drops below 7 knots or is in our face.

But I do like to keep the plant life and fishes happy.
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:39   #497
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Yes, but you'd emit still far less greenhouse gasses if you stay at home next to your wood stove. Cruising is a pretty resource-intensive activity, if you follow the whole cycle including making the boat, diesel fuel used during the minimum 50% virtually all cruisers motor, etc., etc., etc. If you want to feel better morally because you have your sails up once in a while, don't let it go to your head. Out cruising, you're wasting the earth's resources with the best of us.
Yes, staying home could be better. On the other hand, a large concrete house could consume lots of resources too. Liveaboards (no house, no car, no large tv, no daily hot showers) might typically consume less resources than others. And sailing is of course always a bit better than motoring, and that may be better than flying to your holiday destination.

I agree that people often have tendency to do some small green things and at the same time forget all their "black" activities. Maybe wooden boats and Joshua Slocum style sailing (with tin clock level high tech) will soon become popular again.
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Old 08-11-2015, 11:17   #498
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Certainly easy to operate, but then... Why the sailing rig?

I'd really like to hear from a few multi owners. Hopefully, all of them haven't been offended by my post. I certainly didn't mean it to be that way.

Mrs. Kenomac (Pammymac) also wants to know why?
Just reading thru this subject thread, and i would offer one possible explanation. That full batten mainsail is more trouble than many want to content with :
a) heavy to hoist,
b) need to get boat directly into wind to avoid batten/lazy-jacks interference,
c) intimidating to some,
d) etc

Type 'mainless' into the search function and I'm sure you will discover other reasons.
Don't Use the Main (sail that is)
Death of the Ketch



That's one reason I would prefer my all-furling rig

Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland
You know I can still imagine sailing a big 65-foot catamaran with this rig right off the mooring, and back to the mooring, without the engine, by myself, with so little effort that I might take it out having only a few spare hours to kill or for a simple daysail.

And I would rig mine with tiller steering rather than a wheel, and get a really good balanced helm. I wouldn’t have to uncover any sails, nor recover them when I returned to port. I would be less concerned with reefing by myself if the wind were to really come up,...everything roller furls up. If I were short-handed at sea, I would have many of the benefits of a ketch rig, without the necessity of slab reefing the main and mizzen sails of the traditional ketch rig.

That about sums it up. I would like a 65 foot cat that I could take sailing by myself, and that might even be easier than rigging up a trailered beach cat.

Try hoisting a full batten mainsail on a 65 footer by yourself, or even a 40 footer. Most folks over 50 will have second thoughts, or will just unfurl the jib and forget about hoisting the MAINsail.

I'm 65 (now 72), and I could sail this 65 foot cat by myself with this aft mast rig. And with the balance and low power afforded by the smaller 'mainstaysail' I could sail this vessel right off the mooring, or maybe right off a side-to dock slip.

Many people really ‘connect’ with my mastaft rig suggestions. I continuously get email messages complimenting me on this idea. They mostly like the potential ease of use, and they dislike big mainsails!!

You see it’s not JUST an emotional involvement, but rather a real feeling that cruising folks will enjoy this rig.

I also believe a few fisherman may be eventually attracted to this concept of ‘gamefishing under sail’, particularly as the fuel prices continue to rise. And these powerboat guys need a rig that operates as easily as ‘Venetian blinds’. They want it dead simple. I’ve received a few inquiries that have me convinced that my rig is not too difficult for them to understand. Gamefishing for Sail, Under Sail (and power).

Here's a challenge Xperson:..... La Mans start. I'll be out sailing before you get the covers off your mainsail, and when we return for the day, I'll be at the bar with a margarita watching you put away your vessel for the day.
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Old 08-11-2015, 11:22   #499
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
How in the world can they do that? On our Hunter it was interesting at times having to climb up the mast or up onto the arch, but that boat might start a nose bleed.

Was the photo taken using the secret weapon?
There are a significant number of new cats like that,....when they try to fit a flybridge up over the saloon.
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Old 08-11-2015, 11:29   #500
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
...
But if you think about it, it's simple geometry that hard on the wind is the most common point of sail. A really close winded sailboat can tack in 100 degrees over ground; 110 or 120 would be more common. If we consider "sailing close-hauled" to include up to 40 or 45 degrees AWA, then we're probably talking about 150 or 160 degrees over ground. So 160 degrees out of the compass, or nearly 50%, is going to be either tacking, or hard on the wind, or close hauled.

It's highly relevant to this discussion, because if you believe, like most cruisers, that "gentlemen don't go to windward", then you will be motoring nearly 50% just as the result of wind direction, not counting "no wind", "getting in and out of harbor", etc.


And the corollary is that if you like to sail, and want to spend more time sailing, you need to improve your ability, and your boat's ability, to go up wind efficiently.
I can tack on 90º, even a bit less if the conditions are good, but I agree that most boats have a bigger tack angle and condo cats mutch bigger.

Regarding Upwind sailing to be more frequent It depends on the type of sailing and place. If one voyages a lot it will use the trade winds and that's mostly downwind sailing but I agree that the vast majority of sailboats do coastal cruising with some offshore passages.

There are another reason why I sail more upwind than downwind: With my sailboat I sail with 4k wind upwind, making apparent wind and going at least at wind speed. Downwind I cannot make wind, I subtract apparent wind and that means that with light winds I can sail upwind but I have to motor downwind.
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Old 08-11-2015, 11:38   #501
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
I learn a lot from hard-core cruisers. But then I also learn a lot from the way we travel on board... and I don't see any need to make cruising, even the mini version that we usually do, any less comfortable than we can make it.

I've shopped on sailing cats for years, but the only one I've seen with the other gotta-have feature -- a full flying bridge -- was ~85' and I didn't have that kinda pocket change on me at the time.



-Chris
How about the flybridge on THIS
DynaRig MotorSailer

(there is even a sportfishing capability)
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Old 08-11-2015, 11:42   #502
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Good answer. I'm sure that's the case for many, myself included..... Sort of.

Our original plan was to sail back to New England and our home in Whoville, following the purchase in Guernsey. Then sail New England and Canada with trips down to the Caribbean then onto the Pacific. We even added a $10,000 diesel heating system and complete cockpit encloser for the Northern trips.

Instead, we are here in the Med for most likely the next 6-7 years. The ocean crossings have been postponed and a power boat would have worked out just as well, maybe better.
As a 'cutter' guy, you might appreciate this:
Sail Propulsion - Revisiting a Mast-Aft Sailing Rig
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Old 08-11-2015, 11:45   #503
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
. . . There are another reason why I sail more upwind than downwind: With my sailboat I sail with 4k wind upwind, making apparent wind and going at least at wind speed. Downwind I cannot make wind, I subtract apparent wind and that means that with light winds I can sail upwind but I have to motor downwind.
Since putting up my new carbon laminate sails, I notice this quite strongly. Previously (and on all my previous boats including the racing dinghies) the fastest point of sail was always a beam reach. Now a close reach is much faster than a beam reach. The difference is remarkable, especially in light wind. I can't sail at the wind speed (!), but 2/3 of true wind speed is now achievable on my boat under a wide variety of conditions, as long as the wind is ahead of the beam.

Up at this latitude, you don't usually mind sailing downwind, because there is usually enough wind not to even want, much less need, to "make" more wind. But in lighter conditions -- my experience is just like yours.
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Old 08-11-2015, 11:52   #504
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by sail2travel View Post
..... However, if we only have to go a couple miles to a cool spot like we did today, we just motor because hoisting sails for a 2 mile sail isn't worth the trouble of opening the sail bag, hoisting, dousing, getting anchor ready etc. but a 20 mile sail? Heck yeah! So it really depends on the cat and how far we are going, and of course the wind speed to answer the question " to sail, or not to sail?".
You might read this posting of mine:
Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%




Quote:
And the bonus of having the cat? We have a back porch and a living room and deck chairs and leather couches and it is AMAZING how comfortable we and our friends who visit are. We also have a smaller racing monohull and have raced and cruised our whole lives on monos and cats.
The cat is better than we could have dreamed. Lying on the trampoline looking down at Dolphins? Can't do that on a mono. Monos are really nice for sailing, but I wouldn't trade this cat for any monohull while cruising. Ever.
Somewhat as I describe the "Accommodations" subheading on this page
Motor/Sailer Design Expedition Yacht
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:02   #505
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post

When I was about 10 or 11, I first learned what it was like to be on the ocean at night, during an overnight offshore fishing trip off New Jersey. One of my childhood's most memorable adventures, I had never experienced anything like that before, or seen the night sky so free of the light pollution on land, and I was hooked for life... To this day, I find no other experience comparable, more magical, inspiring of reflection and introspection, or likely to remind me of my place in the universe in its proper perspective, than a night spent at sea on a small boat...

Could be just me, but sailing with an unobstructed view of the night sky can make all the difference... My only point was that the fact that many out there today have to some extent insulated themselves from that sort of view, well... that just MIGHT be a contributing factor as to why many cruisers apparently don't enjoy sailing at night as much as some others do...
Bravo
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:07   #506
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
If anyone genuinely wants to know the answer to this question, it is well explained & pretty much answered in this article Considerations for Seaworthiness
And to cut to the important bits of it:

If we apply the same treatment to the underwater shape and keel of a multihull by superimposing the results of tank testing on the boat, in the same way as we did for the sails in Fig 6, we find that the effect of drag of the keel and the hulls on the pointing ability is as follows:
  • 25% decrease in keel efficiency = total loss in tacking angle of 5 degrees.
  • Double hull weight = total loss in tacking angle of 6 degrees.
if we include the lift to drag factors of the sails:
  • 16% decrease in sail area = total loss in tacking angle of 4 degrees.
  • 35% increase in aerodynamic parasitic drag = total loss in tacking angle of 6 degrees.
The total of all these factors is a loss in tacking angle of 21 degrees.

If we compare an open bridgedeck cat of type 6 to an older type of multihull, this is exactly the sort of difference in pointing ability we observe.
When compared to a design of type 1 or4 the modern multihull is much more streamlined, about half the weight, has an efficient keel, wide width for high stability and sail carrying power, and larger rig. All these features combine together to give a windward performance better than any equivalent sized monohull.


Since the linked article was penned, cat's have only gotten (a LOT) fatter, & (FAR) higher in terms of windage. And most of their crap performance is common sense. ~ In a nutshell...
- Horrid; hull, keel, & rudder shapes x2
- Crap rig designs, set up purely for convenience, sans nods to performance.
- Weight 2x that of any monohull of the same length.
- More windage, & drag than a 1,500sqft Ranch Style house.
- Owners who don't know hot to, & or give a rat's ass as to the basics of proper sailing (techniques & gear).

Most of which, it seems, that the majority of cruising cat owners understand (to some degree), but are aghast at even the thought of giving up even some of said "features". Siting the loss of a few luxury amenities which 99% of the world's population will never have.
that was interesting,...and good.
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:10   #507
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
I think I would miss sailing though. Eventually when time and circumstance come together and the sails go up and get trimmed, the engine is switched off and the boat surges forward, there is nothing like it. After 15 minutes when it all has settled into the rythm and motion, a sense of belonging and sharing comes over me and a relaxation of spirit that little else manages. Its not the speed, although a fair return on the wind is appreciated, Its not whether its cold or hot, although warm is nice, its more the appreciation for life and sharing the water. Whether miles offshore or passing quaint fisherman cottages in an estuary, there is this sense of being part of earth, a special part. I never felt this in a fast motorboat.

I missed not sailing in tonight. Its just the way it is. I hope I never get too busy to not enjoy sailing.
Good one Weavis
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:36   #508
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
.. I can't sail at the wind speed (!), but 2/3 of true wind speed is now achievable on my boat under a wide variety of conditions, as long as the wind is ahead of the beam.
..
Wind speed or even over only with very weak winds lower than 4.5K. That is specially noticeable with 3 to 4K winds. Modern fast performance cruisers can do that. The biggest difference for an heavier boat is the light wind potential and that's the main reason I have one, to sail more.

Normally they don't measure speeds under 6K true wind on the Polars but you can see here that the new Maxi 1200 can sail with 6k winds at 5.5k at about 45º apparent (about 60º real) and can go over that with a more open angle.

Off course this is a non charged boat but I believe my boat is a bit faster than the Maxi and with smaller wind speeds the gain in apparent wind is much superior and that is what allows to sail at wind speed or even a bit better. That allows the boat to be moving with very weak winds and since when I am cruising I have not any hurry, I sail many times doing 3 or 4k.

That pisses my wife a bit and we reach an agreement that 3.5k is an acceptable speed. Less than that we run the engine.

Anyway It gave me some pleasure to look around and see that I am the only one sailing

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Old 08-11-2015, 12:36   #509
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post
Just reading thru this subject thread, and i would offer one possible explanation. That full batten mainsail is more trouble than many want to content with :
a) heavy to hoist,
b) need to get boat directly into wind to avoid batten/lazy-jacks interference,
c) intimidating to some,
d) etc
I don't think a full batten main has anything to do with increasing any perceived motoring:

a) electric winch - almost all boats built in the past 10yrs have them. Most catamarans have 2:1 mainsheets anyhow.
b) our lazy jacks start to be an issue raising the sail at ~40* off the wind. If we need to raise them further off, we simply pull them forward and out of the way. Many do this from the start.
c) nonsense - most won't see any difference between full and partially battened mains. Most would probably find full-battened mains easier to handle.
d) etc

We see increased motoring from boats (of all types) with furling mains. This alone pretty much negates any hypothesis regarding full-battened mains.

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Old 08-11-2015, 12:47   #510
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Juho View Post
Liveaboards (no house, no car, no large tv, no daily hot showers) might typically consume less resources than others.
As a liveaboard, we consider our boat our house (and so does the IRS), our dinghy our car, our TV is larger than the one we owned back on land (but still very small), and we do enjoy daily showers - sometimes several per day.

But I do agree that our carbon and resource consumption footprint is smaller now than when we lived on land. It cannot be otherwise. Particularly if one lives on land where AC and heat are necessary, and no public or manual transportation is suitable for getting to work.

The few hundred gallons of diesel and gasoline we burn each year is far less than what we burned on land. In the winter, we burned 100-200gal of diesel each month just heating a small house during the winter. And around 300gal of gasoline feeding a small Honda doing 10,000 miles/yr. And that is a low land footprint compared to those with much larger houses and more yearly mileage on cars.

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