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beiland · 08-11-2015, 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

Trying to avoid the old debate..... I was dyed in the wool mono fanatic until a friend took me for a long delivery trip to weather in his cat. We bashed into the weather (south to north, Red Sea) on a 35ft cat. At the time we had a Lavranos 47 monohull.
The cat boat did go to wind, perhaps not as close as the L47, but it did not take many hours before we accepted we could sleep, cook, make tea (etc) and be generally better rested than we could on our half-a-boat. Cooking a roast chicken in the oven was not something that we would have contemplated on our boat in some of the weather we experienced. We had up to 35 knots apparent following wind in the Indian Ocean with big rolling waves and then had similar wind speeds on the nose for around 800 miles heading up the Red Sea, but with the usual viscous chop. We were against the calendar as normally I would wait the weather out.
We could have likely done the trip quicker on our own boat but at the expense of more strain on both the crew and the vessel.
After just over six weeks (we left from Kenya) on board, and getting off in Cyprus I was convinced; for long term cruising it had to be a cat. I still enjoy day sailing on a mono-hull regardless of conditions. For me it is not about the speed or even the space - it is about comfort, and not being strained unnecessarily.
Until the long delivery trip nothing could convince me about cats. Now I am converted but shall not knock mono's (and its foolish for me to deny the beauty of many mono-hulls versus cats).
Shortly after the above trip I did another cat trip from Cape Town to Durban, which many know can be fraught going against the current. Again we had an interesting time and that trip resulted in the L47 being marketted and replaced with a cat. We have had cats ever since and the bonus is that my wife now enjoys being on board.

interesting experience,...interesting post

beiland · 08-11-2015, 14:09

Wow!, somehow I managed to blow the whole afternoon reading and commenting thru this subject thread, Never realized how long it was

Polux · 08-11-2015, 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juho

Sailing could be a good recommended way of living and moving around for summer holidays, for retired people, and for people who can take their work with them in the boat. The fact that people do not have continuous access to the perceived unlimited resources of fuel, electricity, water, shopping malls and garbage cans certainly influences the way they use these resources.

You are certainly right about that especially regarding the ones that don't like to be at marinas and that stay several days without going to land. Only the accumulation of garbage and the needs to make a careful management of energy will teach any sailor valuable lessons about ressources.

I guess that while we have abundant and cheap energy and disposing of garbage is easy and costless things are not going to change in what regards perceiving the world in another way.

Cheap energy will not last forever, that's probably when we will have to learn to live under a different paradigm.

**Dockhead** · 08-11-2015, 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

. . .Cheap energy will not last forever, that's probably when we will have to learn to live under a different paradigm.

Hopeless thread drift, but I think most futurologists would disagree with this.

There is unlimited energy in the universe; the technological challenge is how to harness it. Very soon, I think within our lifetimes, dependence on burning fossil fuels for energy will be considered impossibly quaint, antique, like whale oil for lighting (which was a real crisis, by the way).

I think that on the contrary, the new paradigm is much more likely to be energy going the same way as Internet connectivity -- getting cheaper and more abundant geometrically.

/hopeless thread drift

colemj · 08-11-2015, 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

There is unlimited energy in the universe

Technically, there is a fixed amount of energy in the universe. Or physics is wrong. I guess it is unlimited in the sense that it can neither be created nor destroyed.

Mark

colemj · 08-11-2015, 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I believe it's proper on CF to present my entire quote and not just a small portion in order to misrepresent my view.

Just in case others missed my quote, here it is in the non-cherry picked edition.

"That's not good for trees and plant life.

Trees and plants need carbon dioxide in order to survive. Plants produce oxygen as a byproduct of photosynthesis. Humans and all animals need oxygen to survive.

Carbon dioxide is good... not bad. Without it, we would all die. Very basic Biology 101."

Better yet... Let's get back to the subject at hand.... Why do so many catamarans and monohulls motor so much of the time?

And since they seem to, why not buy a powerboat instead?

After all, this isn't a thread about science or religion.

Perhaps I missed the point of your post. Someone posted that sailing reduces the carbon dioxide output from burning fossil fuels. Your response seemed to imply that this would be bad for living things.

I was pointing out that the excess CO2 from burning fossil fuels, as well as the release of stored carbon from thawing permafrost, and the inability to absorb carbon from cutting down trees, is a very bad thing for living things.

Living things would have sufficient CO2 to thrive just fine if the entire human race was removed from the environment. Heck, they did so for 2 billion years.

So while the biology of life does require CO2, that is beside the OP's point that living a life that reduces production of excess CO2 is good for the environment and life - not bad.

I fail to see how the rest of your quote changes the meaning of the part I responded to. Unless you really think that none of us understand the necessity of CO2 to life, and that producing as much excess of it as possible is a good thing.

Mark

**Dockhead** · 08-11-2015, 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by colemj

Technically, there is a fixed amount of energy in the universe. Or physics is wrong. I guess it is unlimited in the sense that it can neither be created nor destroyed.

Mark

Exactly. It is unlimited from the point of view of the consumer of energy. Energy is a mere technological challenge, not fundamentally different from the problem of Internet bandwidth.

Polux · 08-11-2015, 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Exactly. It is unlimited from the point of view of the consumer of energy. Energy is a mere technological challenge, not fundamentally different from the problem of Internet bandwidth.

I agree with that but till now there is no way to create clean energy as cheap as fossil energy, not by a long shoot. It will remain to be seen if that would happen before fossil energy becomes scarce.

If that breakthrough happens before fossil energy becomes scarce you will be right, if the energy becomes more expensive, I will be right. Only the future has the answer to that.

ranger58sb · 09-11-2015, 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by beiland

How about the flybridge on THIS
DynaRig MotorSailer

(there is even a sportfishing capability)

Oooh, nice! I could be all over that!!

It solves another of my pesky sailboat issues, too: No standing rigging to be stumbling over or crawling around all the time!

Probably would need a winning lottery ticket, though.

Idea: Extend the arch over the upper helm (flybridge) to make a "hardtop" of sorts... which would then offer ways to hang soft or polycarbonate enclosure panels if desired. You're probably familiar with our local areas, and for me, visibility from the flybridge is often all about the crab pots... so no matter what the weather (or temperature), I'd be at the upper helm. Dry and warm would be good. (Or maybe what you've labeled "Awning Top" is what I'm describing?)

-Chris

Cruiseycatter · 09-11-2015, 18:44

I love sailing most of my crews(we take many different people out) love the idea of sailing more, and generally want to catch fish first then have a sail, and then more so as a victory lap on the way home, hence our heavy fuel useage. sometimes you have to go with the consensus, which is generally for the fastest mode of transport. shame really

beiland · 09-11-2015, 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruiseycatter

.... love the idea of sailing more, and generally want to catch fish first then have a sail, and then more so as a victory lap on the way home,

All the more reason to have an 'instantly deployable' sailing rig,...all 3 sails on my 'single-masted ketch' roller furl

Quote:

You know I can still imagine sailing a big 65-foot catamaran with this rig right off the mooring, and back to the mooring, without the engine, by myself, with so little effort that I might take it out having only a few spare hours to kill or for a simple daysail.

That about sums it up. I would like a 65 foot cat that I could take sailing by myself, and that might even be easier than rigging up a trailered beach cat.

Here's a challenge Xperson:..... La Mans start. I'll be out sailing before you get the covers off your mainsail, and when we return for the day, I'll be at the bar with a margarita watching you put away your vessel for the day.

captainfitzwine · 14-11-2015, 05:52

I have learned a few truths cruising for the past 3+ years over 15,000 miles on my Lagoon 450.
1) keeping a schedule demands more motoring. The luxury to wait for the odd weather window where the wind is going your way doesn't exist for me.
2) the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.
3) day-sailing in and out of your marina allows the most sail time
4) cruising to a destination demands efficiency of both time and resources.

I love to sail and do whenever conditions allow. And I'm having a great time regardless of whether my sails are up or not. And I take advantage of my motor time by making water, fishing, charging batteries, underway chores, cooking, resting and just enjoying the journey.

And motoring isn't just a catamaran thing.

Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Kenomac · 14-11-2015, 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainfitzwine

I have learned a few truths cruising for the past 3+ years over 15,000 miles on my Lagoon 450.
1) keeping a schedule demands more motoring. The luxury to wait for the odd weather window where the wind is going your way doesn't exist for me.
2) the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.
3) day-sailing in and out of your marina allows the most sail time
4) cruising to a destination demands efficiency of both time and resources.

I love to sail and do whenever conditions allow. And I'm having a great time regardless of whether my sails are up or not. And I take advantage of my motor time by making water, fishing, charging batteries, underway chores, cooking, resting and just enjoying the journey.

And motoring isn't just a catamaran thing.

Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Excellent, thoughtful post. Where do you sail in California? I'm originally from Southern California, the Orange County, Newport Beach, Long Beach Harbor area.