Why are Fountaine Pajot cats so much cheaper than Lagoon or Leopard?

[catabroker]

Just as an FYI, there were no Leopard 38's build in 2004-2005.

The production ran from 1999 - 2003 for the Alex Simonos designed Leopard 38.

Then in 2010, a 'new' Leopard 38 was introduced, which is still being build for the Sunsail operations. The Leopard 39 (2011 - onwards) is pretty much the same boat with a different hardtop.

Lots of hear say going on in this thread, when it comes to failures and failed boats, maybe we can see a surveyor's report? I have yet to come across a survey report that mentions a failed balsa core. Mind you, 1200 Leopard catamarans sailing the 7 seas , mostly safely, since 1997.

Peter Wiersema - Leopard owner and Leopard catamaran broker.

[Dulcesuenos]

Just repeating what was told to me except the one in Bahamas the owener or person aboard ( had the impression ot was a friend or aquaintance, gave us the year on that one.
And btw there was a 06 or07 or 08 38 listed on Yachtworld 2 months ago so who made that?

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by catabroker

Lots of hear say going on in this thread, when it comes to failures and failed boats, maybe we can see a surveyor's report? I have yet to come across a survey report that mentions a failed balsa core. Mind you, 1200 Leopard catamarans sailing the 7 seas , mostly safely, since 1997.

Peter Wiersema - Leopard owner and Leopard catamaran broker.

Peter,
I am with you on this poor thread. There is to many mother in-laws sons sister said this boat sucks going on here.

Fountaine Pajot has made 2,500 catamarans to date and they sail all over the world on their own bottoms.

If you compare private owner’s versions of boats to each other you will get totally different prices from charter boat prices.

[pbiJim]

Originally Posted by Cool Freedom

I just bought a PF Lipari 41 and sailed it across from France to Boston. Any questions, fire away. Kewl Change

Boston you say... How about them red sox last night?

[Jim Woodall]

Originally Posted by Jim Woodall

I will chime in on the Leopards. I have posted before that I've done my own very unscientific survey of several owners and boatyard workers concerning the big three: Lagoon, FP and Leopard. What I've taken away is that there is more owner dissatisfaction with Lagoon and FP. The issues generally deal with reliability of installed systems/access/build quality. Most of the people I've spoken with like their Lagoons and FPs very much and would buy another boat by the same manufacturer again; therefore, most of the issues are relatively minor, but annoying. Leopard owners seem somewhat more pleased and are generally very happy with overall build quality. Lagoon owners seem to have the most issues, but there are many more Lagoons on the water than FPs or Leopards. Yard workers at both Wickhams Cay and Nanny Cay were very clear that Leopards have more straight-forward systems and engineering and are therefore easier to work on and repair. I heard from several different workers that Leopards are more "robust", probably because they have to hold up in charter. Apparently Leopard does a better job of keeping things simple. Those are simply my impressions after talking with about two dozen people over a 4 year span. All were owners except for 6 or 7 yard workers. The yard workers had done extensive work on boats by all three manufacturers. I also spoke to people at yards in Florida and North Carolina, but their experience was much more limited. It seems Leopards consistently get higher marks for quality and as being more user friendly to work on and repair. Layout, creature comforts, and sailing qualities might be different issues. It seems all three manufacturers produce good boats that can take you where you want to go.

I posted this to another thread a few months back. Just a couple of weeks ago, during the Annapolis Boat Show, I visited one of the yards in Eastport and the feedback I received was the same, more positive responses about Leopards than about Lagoons or FPs. ( a caveat: the yard has much more experience with Lagoons and FPs, but the consensus was that the Leopards were of somewhat better build quality overall) I guess it just depends on who one talks to and their experiences. I've heard very negative comments about Leopards, Lagoons and FPs from people with lots of experience with all three brands. What has been consistent is that the vast majority of the people I've talked with give the Leopards the nod as the best built of the three. I'd say around 70% - 75% have given Leopards the edge.

Lagoon seems to build a boat with the most creature comforts, but also more than their share of annoying problems as a result. Most Lagoon owners seem very satisfied overall, including with the way the boats handle wear and tear over the life of the boats. Many Lagoon owners I've talked with feel Leopards are too "spartan" for their cruising agendas.

My takeaway from FP owners is they are the best sailing and have better lines than either Lagoons or Leopards. I think most FP owners love their boats, but I've heard many complain about their boats looking more worn than they should after 6 or 7 years. Also, blistering has been cited as an issue by several owners. Many FP owners also feel Leopards are too "spartan" and Lagoons sail very poorly.

I guess this is hearsay, but it comes from owners and yard workers. I have sailed more Lagoons than FPs and more FPs than Leopards. Five years ago I started out with Lagoons at the top of my list followed by FPs and then Leopards. Now it's Leopard, Lagoon then FP.

[Palarran]

Sometimes I read threads on another mostly UK sailing forum. It's interesting about their approach to hearsay. They basically want names. If you heard it from someone, who was it. How do you know what your stating to be true? As posted earlier, once stated as hearsay, next its fact. This would be a good thread to start. Why do we as sailors spread second, third, and up to 20th hand info like its a fact.

Opinions are a ok, afterall, this is an internet forum, IMO.

[Dulcesuenos]

I will say going with the theme of tje OP, the same year Athenas seem slightly lower priced than same year lagoons but not by much. Maybe due to the market having so many more of them?
In my earlier posts I was not knocking leopards just relaying what was told to me first hand and our own observations of one particular boat which I didnt knock the boat and mentioned could have been hard use. If we found a suitable athena, 380 or leopard 38 in our range I wouldn't pass any of them by ... pending a survey that is.

[arpal]

I have a Mahe Evolution. Looked at numerous others and yes, price was a factor. However more important was sail ability. I think the FP's are cheaper because there's basically less material. Lagoon's are very well finished but lack speed and have less sail ability due I believe, to their weight. Look at the Dazcat. Basic interior gives less weight. Same idea. Weight is the killer factor for any cat. I believe FP have it right. The Mahe sails well and tucks in closer than a Lagoon. I can sail mine as close as 35 degs to the wind.

[cruisingkrol]

I'm with you, arpal. We have a '03 Lavezzi and love its lines and sailing ability, both far superior to a friend's one year older Lagoon 38. The Lavezzi deck, particularly stern/cockpit layout, is really easy and safe to move around. Friend's chartered his baby and she's showing the wear and tear: looks much older than our FP. But, that said, what about this price differential question? And cracks? Palarran said it all... hearsay becomes fact. We don't want this forum to become like the typical political forums. Say anything enough times and it becomes the truth.

[Cotemar]

We have had a Fountaine Pajot Mahe 36 for five years now and can still tell you today that it is the best value for the money. It’s a fast boat, both sailing and motoring and points very close to the wind at 35 deg. We only use one VP D1-30 engine to motor at 7.5 knots with folding props.

We have charted a Lagoon 380 and a Leopard 46 in the BVI and they were very slow and only pointed 45 deg. to the wind. You had to use both engines to motor as they were very heavy boats.

In the end the FP Mahe 36 won us over because it was roomy and had lots of style. A Lagoon 380 would have cost us $100,000 usd more for the same amount of usable room.

[robert sailor]

Don't know a lot about the current Cats but unless you have dagger boards 35 degrees is pointing pretty high for a cruising Cat

[monte]

can't really agree about the L380 observations. We always point at about 35degrees and with leeway true angle is about 45 degrees. Also we motor on 1 engine at 5.5 - 7 knots depending on revs. Below is an example of tacking into 1-2m choppy seas with 1k current against and eventually 3 knot current against where you see the tacks at the top

[salticrak]

A bit off the topic, but as far as cruising cats go i wonder what the future holds as far as lightweight building materials/ techniques go? it seems to me these cats are being asked to carry increasingly heavier loads nowadays and still retain a modicum of performance.

[robert sailor]

A good cruising mono hull points between 30-35 degrees apparent although most would only lose 5 degrees leeway.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by catabroker

I have yet to come across a survey report that mentions a failed balsa core.

Hell I have seen a number of spongy balsa boats. BUT - none of them were leopards. Like most things in life its how you do the job that matters. Outside of the boats I represent I would have Leopard first, FP next then Catana (way way overrated boats) and then Lagoon. But that is just my view.