Which Cat to Buy?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Personally, I think the whole "bluewater" mythos is way overdone whether mono or cat. Lots of folks here on CF searching for "bluewater" boats for typical Caribbean cruising...which most any boat can do.

For example, dising Lagoons for this use...just look at the numbers. They have probably done more crossings than any other production cat on the planet just out of sheer numbers. And how many have been lost due to some inherient design deficiencey (not operator error, etc) pretty close to zero would be my guesstimate.

100%.

[2big2small]

Advocate of the devil’s note:

Each time I buy a used boat I look at cats and monohulls. Each time the monohull wins hands down; you’ll get more accomodation, a faster boat, and the safety of a bulb keel and still pay less. This is simply the case because you can get much bigger monos cheaper than any cat.

The chief advantages of a cat are the nice 360 degree view from the saloon, no heeling, and the shallow draft but that’s where it stops. While these might be enough reason to buy one, please remember that a nice 50’ mono is still cheaper than a 40’ cat of the same age. The 50’ mono will be faster, point higher, be safer, have a larger cockpit, probably a larger galley, roomier cabins, much larger saloon, more cruising payload, probably pay less in marinas, etc.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

Advocate of the devil’s note:
The chief advantages of a cat are the nice 360 degree view from the saloon, no heeling, and the shallow draft but that’s where it stops.

(uh oh, the crowd whispers "here we go again")
Beyond the "chief" advantages that you listed, my sailing mate would want to add a few of her "admiral" advantages...(some of us don't want to solo)
1. Living space overall is actually greater for the cat in your comparison.
2. Galley-up is a game-changer. To cruise, or not to cruise hinges on this one feature.
3. "be safer" for a mono is arguable, if staying in lower latitudes (our goal)
4. Living in a (mono) cave sucks in hot weather. (out favorite climate)
5. "larger cockpit" ? hmmm. depends. I think would rather fillet a dorado on a 40' cat no?

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

Advocate of the devil’s note:

Each time I buy a used boat I look at cats and monohulls. Each time the monohull wins hands down; you’ll get more accomodation, a faster boat, and the safety of a bulb keel and still pay less. This is simply the case because you can get much bigger monos cheaper than any cat.

The chief advantages of a cat are the nice 360 degree view from the saloon, no heeling, and the shallow draft but that’s where it stops. While these might be enough reason to buy one, please remember that a nice 50’ mono is still cheaper than a 40’ cat of the same age. The 50’ mono will be faster, point higher, be safer, have a larger cockpit, probably a larger galley, roomier cabins, much larger saloon, more cruising payload, probably pay less in marinas, etc.

(And the crowd moans...."not again....")

I sail, and own, both cats and monos so Ive got no religion about number of hulls (even sail tris and run the occassional power vessel).

That said, I agree that costs of purchase and dockage are likley less for mono, but...bigger cockpit, salon, cabins, galley? Certainly not in most cases.

Peformance/pointing, depends on the boat. Plenty of cruising monos that arent exactly stellar in these departments either. But granted, a mono that is not a pig is likely to do better to windward especially in heavier conditions.

Safer? Not born out by insurance loss stats which have been posted here before...losses are about the same. The capsize vs sinking debate has been beat to death...and in the end makes no difference in loss history anyway.

[akprb]

Originally Posted by stormalong

Probably said by a yacht broker.

Beyond buying the boat there is outfitting and maintenance - they will be a considerable outlay.

Don't forget that you will be sailing the boat. With modern hardware and methods you can sail a bigger boat UNTIL the sh*t hits the fan. When something breaks you will have to deal with it.

Well I caught a bit of flack for this as expected :-)

Clarification. If 40' is the most waterline you can afford then that is the boat. Money is a BIG ISSUE with buying cats. They are expensive relative to monohulls. That being said I think that come time for resale they have an advantage over selling a monohull.

I'm selling our 40' monohull now and this is proving out relative to when I sold our 50' cat.

Back to waterline. If cruising you are going to load your cat, that is just the way it is. Longer = more.

Sailing wise longer = faster

Money wise longer = more expensive but....... my experience is it's relative.

That's the math. We opted for a dutch built custom cat in 2002 that we ended up sailing to NZ from S. Florida. She came in significantly less than a 47' Catana at the time or similar and had an extra waterline and was 27' wide. Buying a one off was cheaper in and cheaper out but when the dust settled worth it. I also found that our one off custom was built to a very high standard relative to production boats. This is not always the case of course but worth consideration. I would do it again and may be shortly.

No regrets.

As far as things breaking you have to "deal with it" whether 30, 40, 50. More expensive as size goes up? Yes. But you know that going in.

Back to rule one, "buy the most waterline you can afford"

Now the next flamethrowers are "well not everyone can afford and you sound like an elitist". Sigh, we planned our life for that glorious decade of cruising for another decade in advance. Super rich trust fund baby? No. Made a lot of decisions and worked like dogs to get there? Yes. There was significant sacrifice going into it and coming out of it but it was worth every hour and every penny.

Here are the hard numbers. Bought Ohana for 330K, sold for 250K, 667.00 per month plus maintenance and expenses to cruise the world on a large cat and raise two great kids. Opportunity costs you can figure in there, hell, triple it to 2001.00/month and still the deal of a life time.

It's all relative ;-)

[akprb]

Originally Posted by Rigger Bruce

I see many cats come through here and being a rigger I would say stay away from,lagoons they're built for hiding behind carrabean islands not out in bumpy oceans.they bend too much and we find we are working on mostly them.theBahia doesn't have enough stays, only two cap shroulds and a headstay.so when something goes pop, there is usually a crash after as the mast comes down. I have to say a Catana is one of the best if you can afford one, fast and high tunnel for less slamming. I didn't ever own a cat, sailed many but work on heaps.Bruce

This has been my experience as well. The Lagoons that crossed with us in 05 all suffered structural issue in NZ.

I was lucky enough to "borrow" a friends Catana 470 for three months and it proved an awesome. That being said the heads are made for french sized butts. That part didn't work so well :-)

[2big2small]

Originally Posted by cyan

(uh oh, the crowd whispers "here we go again")
Beyond the "chief" advantages that you listed, my sailing mate would want to add a few of her "admiral" advantages...(some of us don't want to solo)
1. Living space overall is actually greater for the cat in your comparison.
2. Galley-up is a game-changer. To cruise, or not to cruise hinges on this one feature.
3. "be safer" for a mono is arguable, if staying in lower latitudes (our goal)
4. Living in a (mono) cave sucks in hot weather. (out favorite climate)
5. "larger cockpit" ? hmmm. depends. I think would rather fillet a dorado on a 40' cat no?

I’ll grant you one more: keeping watch from the inside.

In respectful reply to the admiral:

1. There aren’t as many square meters in two narrow hulls plus a nacelle as in a big mono. What you do get however is the feeling of more space thanks to the windows, which is at least as good if not better, until you need to stow all that stuff that the admiral loves to bring.

2. Point granted. All you get on a mono is a bbq in the cockpit.

3. I think you can objectively say a mono is safer, anywhere. I’d rather broach or ground a mono, or sail it in high seas than a cat. But I’d rather cook on a cat in moderate conditions.

4. Why would you live inside in hot weather? Besides a modern mono has lots and lots of natural light and ventilation.

5. Filleting the dorado on a mono with a nice sugar scoop stern isn’t much worse than on a cat, but the latter doesn’t ever heel.


There’s no doubt the cat is an overal nicer platform for living aboard, but is it 50k nicer? It certainly isn’t a nicer sailing platform unless you get the super expensive cats with the big daggerboards that cost the price of three 50’ monos used.

[2big2small]

PS: that being said, of course the admiral is always right.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

Each time I buy a used boat I look at cats and monohulls. Each time the monohull wins hands down; you’ll get more accomodation, a faster boat,

Clearly looking at the wrong cats then.

and the safety of a bulb keel

how is that safer than a boat that won't sink?

[2big2small]

Originally Posted by Factor

Clearly looking at the wrong cats then.
how is that safer than a boat that won't sink?

As a full time liveaboard I’m only interested in boats with decent amenities. If you’re the racer kind of guy then we’ll have wildly different opinions.

Right now the cheapest Lagoon on YW built between 2006 and 2010 is a 2007 380 S2, ex charter, third hand, for 150k euro. It has pretty shitty interior amenities in my humble opinion. You’d have to get one with the owner’s hull to make it allright but that’s probably at least 20k extra.

The cheapest Beneteau Oceanis 50' are priced at 12k less! There are at least 3 from 2007 and 2008 at this price. This model has a brilliant layout, the galley by itself is almost as big as the whole saloon of the Lagoon. There’s a centerline walkaround berth with ensuite in the owner’s cabin. How could I not choose the 50’ mono over the 38’ Lagoon?

(I think comparing the Beneteau Oceanis range with Lagoons is one of the fairest ways to do it since these boats are conceived with the same “cruising over racing” philosophy by the same group.)

[cyan]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

Right now the cheapest Lagoon on YW built between 2006 and 2010 is a 2007 380 S2, ex charter, third hand, for 150k euro.
....
The cheapest Beneteau Oceanis 50' are priced at 12k less!

An 8% difference here doesn't seem to make much of a point. (?)
BTW, your layout pictures scale funny as a thumbnail collection, making the 50' mono look like the same length as the 38' cat.
(disclaimer- I straight-up LOVE the Oceanis 50)

Finally, the Admiral would count a cat's trampoline as living space, as she considers this her front porch/lounge while at anchor in the tropics. I concur that the Admiral is always right.

[2big2small]

Originally Posted by cyan

An 8% difference here doesn't seem to make much of a point. (?)
BTW, your layout pictures scale funny as a thumbnail collection, making the 50' mono look like the same length as the 38' cat.
(disclaimer- I straight-up LOVE the Oceanis 50)

Finally, the Admiral would count a cat's trampoline as living space, as she considers this her front porch/lounge while at anchor in the tropics. I concur that the Admiral is always right.

It’s not just the 8% but the big difference in accomodation. If you want something that starts rivaling the amenities of the Bene 50 you need to move up to a Lagoon 44 owner’s version which would be double the price of the 50. You must really want those cat-only features very badly in my mind to do that. Personally, I’m not there. Even though I’d love to live aboard a cat it’s just not worth the price difference to me.

[Red Herring]

Maybe I missed it, but did the OP say what his budget is?

[Factor]

And of course what 2big2small missed is the title of the thread

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

As a full time liveaboard I’m only interested in boats with decent amenities. If you’re the racer kind of guy then we’ll have wildly different opinions.



Right now the cheapest Lagoon on YW built between 2006 and 2010 is a 2007 380 S2, ex charter, third hand, for 150k euro. It has pretty shitty interior amenities in my humble opinion. You’d have to get one with the owner’s hull to make it allright but that’s probably at least 20k extra.



The cheapest Beneteau Oceanis 50' are priced at 12k less! There are at least 3 from 2007 and 2008 at this price. This model has a brilliant layout, the galley by itself is almost as big as the whole saloon of the Lagoon. There’s a centerline walkaround berth with ensuite in the owner’s cabin. How could I not choose the 50’ mono over the 38’ Lagoon?



(I think comparing the Beneteau Oceanis range with Lagoons is one of the fairest ways to do it since these boats are conceived with the same “cruising over racing” philosophy by the same group.)

Any monohull that puts its primary berth in the bow is not designed for open ocean cruising (unless you plan on sleeping in the quarter berths on passage). If only downwind in the trades, fine, but as soon as you detour to get out of cyclone season the forward berth is a no go zone.

Same goes for catamarans, the forward berths are marginal in rougher weather. But ones with midship berths (extending under the salon seating, not the ones forward of the salon) provide quiet berths right near the centre of movement.