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Old 11-04-2008, 14:34   #1
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Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I know there are some folks that experience with trimarans in general and, in particular, Searunner line. I know Steve Rust does and (if I recall correctly) Kai Nui does too. I am sure there are others. So if you have a good deal of experience here, please jump in.

What I would know is this:

From what I understand, a trimaran has in the main hull a bit less room that a comparably sized monohull. But how much? For example would a 40 mono hull be about the same interior volume as a 38, 36 or even lower mono. I understand you would pick up a bit more storage in some other area but I am just looking for a decent rule of thumb if there is one.

How have you found the design of your trimaran? If you would, please specify the length and model. What would you change?

For those that have a Searunner, what do you think of the centerboard and does the centerboard/center cockpit necessitate a walk-over cockpit or is there a pass through option? I’m not keen on the getting dressed just to go from fore to aft.

Now, my specific reasoning for asking this line of questioning is three-fold:

I have little experience in trimarans but am generally interested as with all things sail powered.

There is a project Marples trimaran that has been mentioned here (several times) over the years that is once again for sale (photos) .

Sometimes I think the best thing I can do in life is to help others out. So if you at this and think “Man, I should get this right now”, please do. I’d have no hard feelings and would only wish you well. As much as I’d like to take on a project, my wife has correctly pointed out we have several things floating now (no pun intended) and just the preparations to get it here and start work would be a fairly massive project. But I am still pushing to take on just one more.
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Old 11-04-2008, 22:46   #2
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I have tried to avoid looking at that Marples 44 for sale. If I was in California and if the workmanship was good I would be all over it at the price it is being offered at. But alas I don't need a project 3000 miles from home.

The Marples 40 and 44 CC designs have the same interior layout as the Searunner and are IMO a more modern version using a different construction style that saves a bit of weight, more modern shape, the main hull is a bit finer. All things that give the boat better sailing performance. Many things that apply to one will apply to the other. John Marples and Jim Brown are/were partners.

It is true that it will have less interior volume than a comparable size mono, maybe similar to one several feet shorter. It just depends on what boats you are comparing. With the bunks and much of the cabinetry up in the wing extensions the narrow hull does not feel overly crowded. If you are tall they offer plenty of headroom, about 6'4" in my 40. I love the dinette in the stern of the boat. One thing I really like about the Searunner is the huge amount of storage areas with deep bilges, large compartments under the cockpit, wingdeck lockers and the floats. I use the wing lockers for a propane locker(1 each 10 and 20 pound tanks), storage for the barbie with a 10 pound tank, 20 gallons of extra fuel in five gallon containers if needed, locker for paint and misc fluids, and spare anchor and rode. All completely sealed off from the living areas. I use the floats for light storage, bumpers, a sail or two, oars, sun awning, folding bike, etc. There is no reason you should ever have to sail this boat with jerryjugs strapped to the lifelines and crap piled high on top of the cabin or piled up on the side deck. They do have less payload capacity than a similar size mono. About 3600 lbs for my 40. The CC boats due to the narrower main hull have a bit less around 2400-2600 lbs if I remember correctly.

The boat is built around the centerboard trunk so you have to accept the idea of the split cabin arrangement. I find it quite acceptable for many reasons. The board gives the boat very good windward ability while preserving the shallow draft. Everything you need to sail and control the boat is right there in the cockpit in the middle of the boat safe and comfy. In my boat the sleeping quarters, dressing room, and head are forward and the galley, nav station, and dinette are aft. I like this as it separates the sleeping quarters from the more active areas of the boat. The down side is if I do have guests there is little privacy but I don't consider that important. There are a few different interior arrangements so you could have separate sleeping quarters if needed. It also allows for the placement of tankage, engine, and heavy storage down low in the center of the boat beneath the cockpit. Searunners have a reputation for a very seakindly motion and good sailing qualities and this weight distribution is part of the reason. It is possible to have a crawlspace under the cockpit about 3 feet high. The designers advise against it, not from a structural standpoint but this is supposed to be a watertight bulkhead separating the boat fore and aft. Some open it up some don't. You would lose a bit of storage as you would need to keep it somewhat clear to be usable. The downside to the center cockpit is that it will be wetter going to windward so a good dodger is essential. Two companionways and the split cabins make the boat harder to heat in a colder climate.

One thing I would change would be to add a sugar scoop stern with steps. I have seen this modification on a few Searunners and CCs.

Hope this answers a few of your questions.
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Old 13-04-2008, 18:15   #3
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In monos I’m not terribly enamored with center cockpits below about 40 feet – used to live aboard a heavier 42 center cockpit… the largish, semi-protected cockpit is nice, of course, but occurs right in the middle of the most useable portion of the boat… all other factors being equal (are they ever…), I've grown to prefer aft-cockpits and a compact, but unbroken, cabin…

Not sure how all that translates into in trimarans… Am just about half-way through Chris White’s book and am taken by the common sense and simple utility of his Juniper design… admittedly his book is a tad dated now, but not in bad way… progress has been made in hull form since hw wrote the book, I’d guess, but the more I read about the technology “conflicts” (vinylester v. epoxy v. carbon fiber v. whatever…) the more I’m convinced this is an avenue I’d not like to take… I was around experimental aviation twenty-five years ago and saw almost the same metamorphosis… Burt Rutan brought his little, modestly affordable canards (which stole the thunder of the tube and cloth guys) and within a decade folks were wrapped up in carbon fiber autoclaves and the prices had skyrocketed into the ionosphere for some truly grotesque looking creations… admittedly there was performance to be had, but soon high-tech, and those titillated by same, were in a world all their own… made good magazine copy, but little else… and a quarter century later, most are gone…

I’d like to see something along the elegantly simple lines of Marples CC 35As, or some such… seems like plenty of room for a cruising couple, but not so sumptuous accommodations that guests stick around past their flight home… granted, a heavier displacement mono might haul more weight, but if one needs an extra quarter ton because epoxy and ply were used instead of autoclaved carbon fiber, well another half a foot or so of waterline should get the performance back with little or no sacrifice in utility…

But I read on…
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Old 15-04-2008, 03:47   #4
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Am just about half-way through Chris White’s book and am taken by the common sense and simple utility of his Juniper design… admittedly his book is a tad dated now, but not in bad way… progress has been made in hull form since hw wrote the book ...
Thanks for the considered response, Steve.

Larry, the Juniper 2 (nee ‘Carisa’) is for sale. Yes, it could be yours … The Multihull Company (Philadelphia, PA)

Anyway…

There are a lot of things I like about the Marples 44CC; chief of which is that, if constructed well up to this point, it’s an incredible value. There are also a number of people who have built them over the years, so there is a pool of experience to tap out there.

There are some things that make pause, too. One of which is the design itself seems dated. I know this is proven design, and I everything I have read says its pretty one too, but it seems the current consensus is daggerboards are generally preferred to centerboards as they create less drag. And the solid wings are nice in terms of acreage but it seems a bit of netting might be preferable. And frankly I would be willing to add a bit windage if the pilot house could be worked in or a pass-through walkway that isn’t three feet high.

And therein lies the rub. More weight to a weight-sensitive boat.

Steve, concerning the sugar scoop steps, are you thinking of the rikki-tikki-tavi solution http://www.svrikki.net/RTT/transom2.html or something else? When I look at them I think slip hazard and perfect way to get injured when trying to climb back in. But I could be wrong. I would think a something of one or both of the wings would work fairly well and could be broad enough.
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Old 20-04-2008, 01:07   #5
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The fact that the CC is based on the earlier Searunner design I suppose you can say it is somewhat dated. My take on it is that it took a very good cruising design and made it better. I would agree that the open wing design and the use of daggerboards will make the boat perform better but whether they make it a better for cruising is less certain. From a practical standpoint the idea of having to walk across the netting or the curving narrow beams getting on and off the boat has little appeal. Try walking on a trampoline while you are carrying a case of beer or two to get the idea. The centerboard is much less prone to damage than a daggerboard if you hit something. Done that twice now. The main issue with the solid wing is the possibility of slamming the wing on the wave tops. I have had this happen a few times but all I needed to do was slow the boat down. With an open wing tri you could push the boat harder thus the appeal to the racer or more performance orientated sailor.

I think the 44CC can be built with what is called a vented wing that replaces part of the wing with net but still retains a usable walkway. Marples has another design series called Fast Cruisers that are similar to Chris White's Juniper design. Even these designs are around 20 years old.

I don't think it would be possible to put a pass-through walkway. The trunk is one of the main structural elements and you would have to alter it's support structure(cockpit floor). Plus shifting the cockpit and companionways over to one side. The "Riki" solution to the stern is what I had in mind though I don't know if I will actually do it. The fold down steps on the side of the float at the stern works well. This is the lowest spot on the boat.

I still can't believe the price on that boat. It's just killing me. It would seem the big drawback is the fact that it needs to be moved so you really need to find a local buyer.
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Old 20-04-2008, 06:33   #6
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I would agree that the open wing design and the use of daggerboards will make the boat perform better but whether they make it a better for cruising is less certain.
That's quite a good distinction.

Quote:
From a practical standpoint the idea of having to walk across the netting or the curving narrow beams getting on and off the boat has little appeal. Try walking on a trampoline while you are carrying a case of beer or two to get the idea... I think the 44CC can be built with what is called a vented wing that replaces part of the wing with net but still retains a usable walkway.
I was thinking something more like this for the exact (Save the beer!) reason you mentioned.

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The centerboard is much less prone to damage than a daggerboard if you hit something. Done that twice now.
My main concern about the centerboard is the amount of turbulance it generates compared to a daggerboard. However, you point out a strong advantage.

[QUOTE]I don't think it would be possible to put a pass-through walkway. The trunk is one of the main structural elements and you would have to alter it's support structure(cockpit floor). Plus shifting the cockpit and companionways over to one side.

I am not certain it wouldn't work but I am certain there would be so many changes and compromises needed you might as well redesign the whole thing... or just accept the strengths and weaknesses as it is.

Quote:
The fold down steps on the side of the float at the stern works well. This is the lowest spot on the boat
.

Is that what you are using? I was just thinking of how I would. I love to see a photo if you have one.

Quote:
I still can't believe the price on that boat. It's just killing me. It would seem the big drawback is the fact that it needs to be moved so you really need to find a local buyer.
I am right there with you. I would have to move it from coast to coast, buy a piece of land and put up a metal building. That’s possible but difficult to meet his timeline of moving by summer. And I haven’t included for the flight out for inspection. But the really hard part would be working on it as I am rarely home.
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Old 20-04-2008, 13:32   #7
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My daysailor has a centerboard and uses plastic flaps attached to the bottom of the slot to close it off. I have sailed it with and without the flaps and it does generate alot of turbulence in the slot and much water slopping up into the cockpit without them. How much this affects performance I don't know. This is a very fast boat that can keep up with the Hobie Cats much of the time and will also plane on a downwind run in strong winds. The few times I sailed it without the flaps I had to keep bailing out the cockpit. On the trimaran the because the trunk is much higher the water does not slop up into the cockpit. I may think about putting flaps on the trimaran too. I think the best benefit of daggerboards is that the structure takes up less space in the boat. The boards on the Searunners and CC boats are buoyant and are held down by a very small diameter line that will break if you hit something. A larger line is used to pull the board down but this is not cleated off. I have a piece of 1 1/2 inch sanitary hose attached to the front edge of the trunk to act as a shock absorber if the board comes up to quick.

The steps are fold up type that clip on at the deck edge. They are not permanently mounted. I would like to put a fold down stainless steel type that would be fold up against the lifelines and stay in place. One on each side. Can't find a photo at the moment but will look.

Moving something 26 feet wide across the country. Now that would be an adventure!
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Old 20-04-2008, 14:56   #8
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The steps are fold up type that clip on at the deck edge. They are not permanently mounted. I would like to put a fold down stainless steel type that would be fold up against the lifelines and stay in place. One on each side. Can't find a photo at the moment but will look.
Thanks, I do appreciate it.

Quote:
Moving something 26 feet wide across the country. Now that would be an adventure!
For me? Nah!

Now for the movers ....
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Old 20-04-2008, 18:55   #9
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trimarans are best

I prefer Trimarans, over all other designs, and I have owned them all.
The reasons, are flat sailing, higher speed and shallow draft over monohulls.
Catamarans are very popular for cruising but until you get well over 40 ft the interior of the cat is not user friendly, A lot of space is wasted.

A trimaran allows the center hull to be fitted out in a more traditional manner (monohull). The daggerboard/centerboard can be offset against one side of the hull witout any performance disadvantage, which then gives more room inside.

Monohull design is not really evolving, everything has been tried/tested over and over. However Multihull design is still evolving, The Searunner is an old design, a good one, but still old. The newer trimaran designs are far far better.
For a performance/racer you cant beat Ian Farrier but his designs are too race orientated for me.
Trimarans, designed for cruising, have a lot going for them. The key factor is designed for cruising. They are also less expensive to build than a catamaran.

I have a thread on this forum under multihulls/beaus' boat. It is probably not the type of boat you would want but it is MY version of everything I would like in a cruisng boat.
Shallow draft.( i drop it on the beach and let the tide go out)
Sails flat.
Fast
Plenty of room for two.
I can use a monohull marina berth.
It fits inside a 40 ft shipping container so I can freight it anywhere in the world.
It is made with Aluminium panels and is inexpensive to build.

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Old 21-04-2008, 09:04   #10
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I prefer Trimarans... Multihull design is still evolving, The Searunner is an old design, a good one, but still old.
This is somewhere along where I’ve landed – albeit via reading and recreational number crunching, not personal experience… but, and maybe I’m wrong, in multihulls it appears that the down-to-earth but reasonably progressive designs seem disproportionate in the Cat realm, versus Tris…

I like the CC vessels – Marple’s 35 in particular – but have been Googling for several weeks trying to come up with Tri equivalents to the Easy Cat series, or Waller’s chine ply and resin designs, etc… simple being good (realizing that is a relative term), and a basic cruising design that reflects much that has been learned in recent years without immediately jumping over the high-tech cliff… 2500 hours or so construction time in a semi-familiar medium is okay, but 4000-5000 hours of construction time in a largely unfamiliar, and pricier, medium is downright silly for folks approaching social security age…

I like my little slack-bilged Bristol just fine and might just redo it (again), but could use a tad more load carrying ability if we really intend to range a bit afield, and speed is okay too – only just a tad of both, so long as seaworthiness when shorthanded isn’t compromised… truth is being a heavy mono, I can load up our little rascal 500# or so over design and about all I need to do is raise the waterline, but my bride and I have been toying with the notion of tackling a new construction – she’s actually the woodworker in the family, I have limited glass experience – and like the Tri concept – especially the more open-deck ones with more or less familiar main-hull style accommodations… Ferrier is very attractive, but I prefer to stay with ply…

I've been to your pic, impressive -- just have no aluminum experiance... Anyway, wish someone could steer me toward some Waller or Easy-esque style Tris…
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Old 21-04-2008, 15:04   #11
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Ray Kendrick at Team Scarab Multihulls does ply tri's, I think Kurt Hughes does, or probably would if you asked, indeed a few designers might be inclined to give it a go for you.
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Old 21-04-2008, 17:13   #12
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Like Steve Rust, I have a Searunner 40, which I built just over thirty years ago and have lived aboard since. Mine has a guest cabin forward, with workshop, dressing room and head. The aft cabin has my nav station, personal bunk, galley and sterncastle dinette. There is an open sub-cockpit alleyway to the forward cabin in case it's REALLY wet. I have had no problems with the turbulence created by the centerboard slot - the boat is still faster than most others of its length.

You asked how wide the hull is. In the aft cabin, the widest part of the hull is about six feet at hip level. The cabin sides extend another three feet on each side giving a twelve foot wide at shoulder level. Slightly more than one can reach outboard to the end of a locker. I'm very happy with the space available. The cabins are bright, airy and comfortable. And the boat sails like a dream.

I am currently in the design phase of building a hard dodger. When that's done I will build a new centerboard - the old one is fiberglass/epoxy over plywood - too heavy. The new one will be foam with a composite core (Bob Dixon is working with me on this to make it very strong, very light, and too expensive). I'm in the process of completely overhauling all of the systems. After thirty years, things change and improve, things wear out, and things get simpler or more complex. I've got a new diesel, all new electrics and electronics (including forward scanning sonar), new steering, new portlights (soon), and a new galley in the works. Then, it's overhaul the rigging, repaint the deck and cabin, install new bownets, and go somewhere fun.
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Old 21-04-2008, 19:31   #13
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dcstrng
What do you think of the Marples Fast Cruising 37? Somewhat similar to Chris White's Juniper but smaller. I actually like it better as it has the option of small wing extensions so you can get decent accommodations without having to go up to 50 feet like Juniper. It may be simpler to build than the CC35A. A few months ago I saw a FC 37 advertised or sale at round 50k. From the photos it looked very well built and maintained. It has since sold but at what price I don't know. I doubt it could be built and equipped for less. Unless you want to tackle the building process it may be cheaper to buy an existing boat if you can find what you want.

Roy M
I would like to see your dodger design when you have it done. The centerboard change sounds good too. That sucker is heavy as I remember from the last time I pulled it out. I would have to agree with you Roy about the boat sailing like a dream. It may be old and outdated but I would put it up against anything out there in it's size range for comfort under sail.
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Old 22-04-2008, 03:46   #14
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Checked on Kurt Hughes site and yep he has an extensive range of Rapid build trimarans.
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Old 22-04-2008, 05:08   #15
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Prior to all the modifications ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
Like Steve Rust, I have a Searunner 40, which I built just over thirty years ago and have lived aboard since. Mine has a guest cabin forward, with workshop, dressing room and head. The aft cabin has my nav station, personal bunk, galley and sterncastle dinette. There is an open sub-cockpit alleyway to the forward cabin in case it's REALLY wet. I have had no problems with the turbulence created by the centerboard slot - the boat is still faster than most others of its length.

You asked how wide the hull is. In the aft cabin, the widest part of the hull is about six feet at hip level. The cabin sides extend another three feet on each side giving a twelve foot wide at shoulder level. Slightly more than one can reach outboard to the end of a locker. I'm very happy with the space available. The cabins are bright, airy and comfortable. And the boat sails like a dream.
Thanks for your comments it looks like you'll have projects for some time to come. The sub cockpit alley sounds just like what I was asking about.

Would you gents be so kind as to post photos of your boat I saw the three you have of the exterior but I would love to see how it's laid out now. And if you could, point me to some sort of owners' group.
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