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Old 30-01-2013, 13:40   #1696
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I can't find an icon for "go advanced"
I have a feeling I will have to shrink the pictures
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Old 30-01-2013, 13:49   #1697
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

It is underneath the quick reply space right next to the post quick reply icon!
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Old 30-01-2013, 13:58   #1698
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

A budget cutter approach is to use the yankee jib with a down haul line to the head and a jack line to the clew. put blocks up by the tack to turn the lines then run them back to the cockpit. The pulpit should be laced with light line to act as a catchers mitt. You then sail as a full time cutter with the staysail and drop the jib when it kicks up , pulling tight on the downhaul and jacklines and cleating them off. You can put a reef in the main first to put dropping off awhile. It wouldn't work well with the genoa or a lapper because of their size but can do the job if your pulpit is the right size. Of course for really wild weather lashing the yankee down would b smart but I sailed a cutter across the straights in nasty weather many times using this method without a problem.
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Old 30-01-2013, 16:41   #1699
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I tried to contact John Marples via the Searunner.com site using the listed contact marplesmarine@gmail.com. The e-mail got returned as no such address. Can anyone help?
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Old 30-01-2013, 16:48   #1700
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

marplesmarine@gmail.com

I've gotten emails from John from this address
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Old 30-01-2013, 16:52   #1701
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Or, give him a buzz:

MARPLES MARINE
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Ph. (207) 326 8096 email: marplesmarine@gmail.com
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Old 30-01-2013, 17:59   #1702
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

One last word or two about port & dodger plastics...

Roy, I like your installation. It is very neat & tidy, VS the Sherman tank "nuts n bolts" look. If you left 1/8" or so of space on all sides of the plastic, before nestling your Plexiglass in there, with a "resilient" caulk, it should be fine from 0 degrees F to 106 degrees F like we endure here. OR, if you never put yourself through such foolishness, and stay within about 20 degrees of the temp that you mounted them in, expansion and contraction shouldn't be an issue in any case.

For those who expect a larger than 20 degree temperature range during the boats life, bear this extreme expansion incompatibility issue in mind, which ever plastic or mounting system is used. Expansion and contraction of ALL materials with different rates, must be allowed for, otherwise bridges buckle, buildings fall, etc!

The same issue exist with vinyl rubrail like ours, btw. It expands 3/8" in length, when out on a table, just from the sky suddenly clouding up! (really, I measured) The boat does NOT, so flexible, resilient, mounting must be used.

About our Lexan... That fwd "head compartment" hatch that looks hazed over in a previous photo, just looks that way because I sanded it with 220, for "light" transmission only. (for privacy)

The plans on the 34 call for nuts n bolts lexan ports, as this is the most tried and true method. (especially in 1/4" VS 1/4" thickness). Mine are 18 years old +, and will last for the life of the boat. They are virtually immune to impact fracture, from a huge wave OR a swinging whisker pole. This is not true of 1/4" thick plexiglass, which has a very small fraction of the impact resistance. Believe me... I have seen cracked plexiglass on dozens of boats over the last 43 years. Also... nuts n bolts Lexan ports, (mounted correctly as I described), will NEVER leak or cause a problem. No mounting technique works long term, when it is done INcorrectly.

Having said that, on a dodger, the clear Lexan does yellow over decades a bit, but not the tinted Lexan. Opaque covers eliminate this from happening, as well as surface chalking. On a hard dodger that is quite curved like ours, I wouldn't consider Plexiglass, as the French curve near the front plastic's edges is beyond what Plexiglass should be asked to tolerate. It also doesn't lend itself to the outer frame/trim ring technique, due to the extreme curve.

As I said before, the hazyness polishes out of Lexan, and after our one grueling refurbishment, 10 minutes polishing on each port, at the beginning of the season, is all of the maintenance needed for 90% clarity.

More clarity than that is only an issue when you are at the dock! Once cruising, you will have caked on salt crystals and smudge, all over them, EVEN if they're glass.

If left uncovered, (like all of our plastic but the dodger's are), and both types of plastic are tinted, AND both are maintained (polished yearly), the same amount... then after 18 years, the Plexiglass will need replacement soon, and only be a small fraction as clear as the Lexan is, which has only surface flaws, and is good for another 18 years.

Now, with clear plastic, like on a dodger, you MUST keep it covered to keep it in good shape for decades. Same is true for Plexiglass, unless you plan to just replace it every 6 or 7 years.

I would never consider "clear" plastic on cabin side ports, so if they're tinted, they should be clearer, longer, if in Lexan... That's IF you are polishing them out. If you replace them every 10 years like Roy, then the Plexiglass should indeed be more clear than the original Lexan, which stays at about 90% clear, once you resort to polishing.

IF I had known about the "opaque" cover issue in the dodgers first 5 years, it would still be 99% clear, with NO yellowing, and requiring NO polishing. "hindsight"! This is why I'm passing these points on...

If one used Plexiglass, for its shorter term clarity advantages, then it would need to be 3/8" thick to even approach the incredible strength of Lexan. It would probably be more expensive, and prohibitively heavy!

I considered a faceted dodger windshield, but culled it for aesthetic reasons. If I wanted the best long term clarity, (without being covered when at rest), & my design had 3 flat panels rather than being 1 compound curved panel, then safety glass would offer that, at similar strength to Plexiglass. I have friends that ordered custom Lewmar hatches glazed with 1/4" safety glass, and these were mounted into their faceted dodger. NIFTY!

Also... glass expands & contracts at a rate more similar to the wood/epoxy/foam or glass, "composite materials" of the dodger OR boat. (I was raised in my dad's Pella window business, & to finance my first boat, I studied both glass and plastic glazing characteristics when working as a window rep for 3 states). There's a lot to it...

Since glass doesn't expand and contract at 10X the rate of the boat, like plastics do, it would lend itself to Roy's recessed mounting technique, but with Butyl Mastic tape under it, and caulk on the trim ring, just like windows in general. You can also get custom made glass ports that are already in their trim rings, with a matching interior clamp ring. These would be a permanent installation, unless you break it!

This would be nice on the sterncastle ports especially. They are the only ones that you look out of much, and unlike plastics, washing salt off, even daily, will not harm or scratch the glass. This is also the one place where the weaker material of safety glass is actually an acceptable risk, considering the benefit, imo.

The front cabin port "has" to be plastic, as it's curved. The bunk ports have curtains drawn 99% of the time, and galley ports are only partly used... at least on Delphys.

I would still use my permanent, 1/4" thick tinted Lexan here, (either mounting technique that one prefers), and I find that 90% clear here, with yearly polishing, (but indefinitely), is just fine. Same with the dodger glazing, but in "clear" Lexan, kept covered for "permanent" 99% clarity, but with "0" polishing.

The aft swing out port as well, is easy to polish out to 90%, and I would only use Plexiglass here, if it was 3/8" thick. WAY too heavy! These swing out ports require through bolting, which Lexan takes to the best...

Only on the aft cabin sterncastle (or "possibly" even the galley ports), would I consider custom made "factory", or "Roy recessed" safety glass ports.

Extreme clarity IS nice at the dock, on the few ports with curtains left open there, but once cruising and salt encrusted... for our rugged, weight sensitive boats, Lexan solves the problem lightly, permanently, and safely, without leaking. EVER!

Plexiglass can do a good job too, but bear in mind all of the trade offs, like extra weight & expense for 3/8" thick, less strength even then, and a much shorter lifespan.

It all gets complicated, doesn't it?

Oh yes... GE, who makes lexan, and their reps glaze windows for unbelievably harsh conditions, (like on sky scrapers & skylights)... suggest glazing plastics like Lexan in SilPruf Silicone ONLY... The spec sheets are about 1/4" thick, and easily available to all. It explains this and the expansion coefficient accurately.

M.
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Old 30-01-2013, 18:39   #1703
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

It is a good idea for anyone interested in plastic windows to research the differences from the actual manufacturers and distributers. Lexan is stronger but has a shorter expected service life than plexiglass. Polishing attempts are not apt to work well at all. I've got a set from a parted out boat sitting around to remind me about the yellowing and clouding. The strength for any application can be designed into supports to limit movement as shown in the Searunner book. At about 30 times stronger than safety glass plexiglass is more than adequate for a proper installation.. It is also, like polycarbonate. capable of being thermal molded for tight curves....so check with the real experts in manufacturing to make a informed decision on the trade offs of different plastic types when contemplating your windows. Clarity can be achieved........
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Old 30-01-2013, 19:30   #1704
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Old 30-01-2013, 21:00   #1705
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Thanks folks, I'll try all the e-mail addresses. Mark, you're right, I forgot to include the detail of the separation. I used the 4000UV as the "cushion" at the bottom, letting it cure a bit before assembling.
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Old 31-01-2013, 06:44   #1706
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
Thanks folks, I'll try all the e-mail addresses. Mark, you're right, I forgot to include the detail of the separation. I used the 4000UV as the "cushion" at the bottom, letting it cure a bit before assembling.
Sounds great Roy,
Your installation should stand the test of time, and looks great too! I like it...
You have always found a system that works for you, and having lived aboard for 30 years, you should certainly know what works for you. When the owners list is completed we'll know, but I think you have the record, in years as a Searunner liveaboard.

When I flew across the country to Pella Iowa, 38 years ago, and attended Pella service rep seminars, I learned a lot, including about glazing windows and doors with plastics, (Like we did for high security locations) We also covered hurricane resistance, longevity tips, etc. After my return, I was the only such Pella expert for all of SC and all of coastal Ga and Fl. Living on the road finally got to me though, and I returned to building my boat... Pella was considered to be the best windows and doors in the world, and in glazing thousands of them, I used 1/4" soft rubber spacers at the bottom, on the larger glass doors, and smaller windows got smaller spacers. With plastic glazing, the expansion zone on all sides would need to be much more, in proportion to the size of the panel. My dodger's front panel for example, is about 6' long, so can easily change OVER 1/4", but a smaller cabinside port might be just a third of that.

I hate to be pedantic here... but my point to others was simply to correct the erroneous notions that persist, when making ones decisions.

As can be clearly seen in the photo above, with my wife's arms behind the ancient lexan dodger plastic, the left side has only been sanded to a glaze with 600 grit, and on the right side, this 600 grit sanding was followed by extensive polishing. Pretty clear by comparison, right? IT DOES POLISH OUT. This level of clarity is now easy to maintain, by hitting it a lick every season. I'd call it 90%. (If kept properly covered from day one, this would not have been necessary) My Plexiglass panels in hatches, however, (also 18 years old), got the same treatment as tinted Lexan cabinside ports, but CAN NOT be brought back to more than 50% or so, due to the Plexiglass' deep crazes.

None of the tinted Lexan ports required the 600 grit sanding first, only RO polishing. Only at the dock is a slight loss of clarity noticed.

For a long term installation, (life of the boat long), tinted Lexan, with maintenance, will still be serviceable and clear enough, for decades, where as 20+ year old 1/4" plexiglass, with the same maintenance, would be MUCH harder to see through and absolutely unsafe, due to DEEP crazes!

On "clear" NON tinted plastics, like for the hard dodger, either one will stand the test of time, without heavy polishing, "by keeping it covered" with an OPAQUE Sunbrella cover.

Roy, with your ports' change out schedule, you have taken these differences into account, and it works for you because you change the plastic before it gets heavily damaged. There are lots of ways to do things, and it gets down to what priorities one has, as well as personality traits, etc. I'll just say that I wouldn't hesitate to go to sea on your boat, OR mine!

I would never "advocate" glass as an option, but was just mentioning it as the clearest and longest lived one. (sterncastle only perhaps) Here, the risk is reasonable, and the clarity as well as ability to wash daily, means the most, (for those who want the ultimate in clarity at the dock)... I did not.

GLASS;
Think of the strength of your car's windshield! In selling Pella sunrooms, we used to walk out on huge 3' X 8' panels of horizontal 1/4" glass, and beat on it at length, as hard as possible, with a LARGE rubber mallet! (Simulating softball sized hail) This type of glass would be fine, except at resisting a swinging whisker pole or flying snapshackle. My solar panels have made it this far with 1/8" glass... (and survived TERRIBLE hail storms in 60 knot winds I might add)!

These sort of impacts are also the Achilles heel of Plexiglass, and no amount of extra support in the hole improves impact resistance to hard objects. Increasing thickness does... So, in deciding on Plexiglass, one can change it out when needed, like you do, to maintain better clarity at the dock, AND go thicker than 1/4" for a still goodenuf impact resistance (at the expense of extra weight), OR they can stay with 1/4" Plexiglass and live with 1/10th the hard impact resistance of Lexan. 1/4" Plexiglass is certainly not "as" safe, but has served OK for decades too.

Neither option is wrong. ONLY making a decision about materials, without knowing their relative pros & cons, is wrong.

As always Roy, your work is top notch, and works for you... Mine does too.
With WELL over half of my years of livingaboard on my 3 boats being "out cruising", or at least living on the hook, I never could see out of my ports much, due to the salty water smears that one can rinse off just a bit, but the smears remain, due to "wiping" salt off of ANY plastic being bad for its health. Due to this harsh environment, even if I'd had glass, the fine salty mist would require washing the ports twice daily! By keeping the dodger covered, we avoid this issue, and maintain clarity as best we can, where it matters most on a cruiser, the dodger.

Here, Plexiglass never was an option for us, as it will not bend to fit the frame that I had built. Even with much more flexible Lexan, it was the maximum allowable radius, and quite a challenge.

Kindest regards,
Mark
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Old 31-01-2013, 08:23   #1707
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
I tried to contact John Marples via the Searunner.com site using the listed contact marplesmarine@gmail.com. The e-mail got returned as no such address. Can anyone help?
Roy,

I updated his site last night. It now has the phone number in addition to the new email address he uses (marplesmarine[at]gmail.com).

One thing that seems to be slowing him down is he is building a new shop so that's taking a bit of his time.
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Old 31-01-2013, 08:39   #1708
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

A point about choices...

I choose multihulls more for shallow draft than performance. That is something I would not give up if I turned to "the dark side" and got a monohull. Having said that...

My German friends Wolfgang & Barbara have a unique (partly self built) monohull. She's made of hard chined aluminum, and at 35' long, has only about 4' draft! With two bilge keels, she sits on the bottom like a cat does, if the tide catches them unawares. The center hinged, boomed out jib, provides the drive, albeit slowly.

Unlike our thin hulled, uninsulated, walkover cockpit, double cabin Searunners, (which are about the worst design imaginable for cold area cruises), MoMo is perfect for it. It is super insulated from stem to stern, with the hull foam blown in before the interior went in.

The ports and ALL lenses are "glass", with the hull & cabin lenses custom made of tinted, double wall, insulated IG glass! (Vacuumed between the pains)...

The aesthetics of MoMo took an adjustment of priorities for me, but, this boat is VERY practical. She's low maintenance, TOUGH, and so cozy in cold weather, that when they visited our creek in winter weather, just the act of cooking kept us all nice and warm. I saw the advantage of an insulated boat, (with IG glass), for true cold water options. This is one of the biggest monohull advantages, cold weather cruising!

When on this side of the pond, they went deep into the waterways of Canada, which I would not consider on Delphys...

It can be done on Searunners, and has been, but our boats shine at tropical cruising, not going to Alaska on a 25'er!

These folks also shattered some myths for me regarding safety glass on boats. With double walled glass, 5/8" apart, it would take more than a loose winch handle to break both pains of it. In SOME situations, even single pain laminated safety glass is safe enough, IF one really wants it's advantages. I have already covered how this does and does not relate to Searunners, and weighing all of these glazing options.

These folks have traveled far and wide for over a decade now, including crossing the Atlantic, and are now in the Canaries.

Brilliant cruisers with a brilliant boat, in my view...

Mark
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Old 31-01-2013, 09:33   #1709
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Any plastic should be replaced when its service life or strength are compromised. The line "I can't see out of my windows when sailing anyway" is a poor excuse for a maintenance burden and opaque view. If cost were no object I'd consider coated polycarbonate and have them switched out every 5-10 years. Some people do confuse extruded acrylic with cast acrylic. Cast acrylic holds up very well indeed. For long term applications it is what you are apt to find. Many office buildings use plastic in windows, now ask yourself when the last time was you saw a army of polishers sanding and buffing for a very optimistic 90% view at the start of the "business" season.
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Old 01-02-2013, 13:39   #1710
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Hello,
Is anyone in the Searunner community attending?
Northwest Multihull Regatta
Friday, 17-May ~ Sunday 19-May

Northwest Multihull Association is proud to sponsor a new event this year, a regatta exclusively for multihulls from 14 feet up. Based at Port Hudson Marina in scenic, historic Port Townsend, we'll have 2 days of distance and buoy racing, evening events on shore and an opportunity to enjoy the camaraderie of similarly afflicted souls. There's fun for the whole family, even a rating adjustment for young sailors in the crew!

If so send me a PM and we can meet up for a pint or two.
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