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Mark Johnson · 25-11-2012, 16:59

Jeff, You may have missed a couple of my points. Let me clarify...

The epoxy coats I suggested were: (3 on and one or two sanded off, twice). It ends up with minimal unburried glass spots, and about 2 coats over the just barely burred glass job. It gives more consistent results, because if epoxy is sanded lightly, but not first leveled, then due to an "orange peel" surface from the epoxy roller, one is only sanding the hills, while the valleys, (= 50 +%) remain un-prepped.

Remember... Epoxy gets "0" chemical bond, and ONLY the tooth from being completely glazed over makes it work. I have done peel experiments with strong glass to confirm this... For the most part, the 50% sanding job, (resulting in a 50% bond), that most builders do, seldom falls apart, but future failure could be reduced in likelihood to ZERO, by sanding surfaces totally flat, before the next process, (IF its beyond the chemical bond window).. That's why I put on 2 or 3 coats ON THE DAY I GLASSED IT, 45 minutes apart. Then sand perfectly smooth the next day, almost exposing the glass, but not quite. Now the glass is filled, totally flat & glazed over, and has NO topcoats beyond that. To give a cushion for future paint job required standings, future glass tape feathering, etc... I put on 3 more coats that second day, 45 minutes apart. On the third day, I sand again, removing one of the 3 coats. Then I have basically 2 additional top coats, but over a previously filled and flat glass job.

The additional glass I recommended on the CB, its trunk, and the rudder / skeg, are a small area only, and in order to avoid problems here, which Searunners are VERY prone too. I'd say that over half of the one offs with centerboards have had problems with them or their trunks, after 30 years. If they'd do as I suggested, then having a CB starts to be maintenance tolerable, and the advantages win out. Most boats with problems here have owners that don't know, until its been getting wet in there for many years! Then they try to remove the board, but can't, because its swelled.

Climate makes no huge difference regarding structural failures, btw... its impacts, stresses, and the decades of time, that do these areas in. With paint, yes for sure, the tropics is brutal. Our boat has held up better in the tropics though...

The same extra glassing with bias tapes, btw... actually applies to all of the radii, chines, and seams... Its the impacts, point stresses, and time, (more than anything), that does these areas in too.

It was John Marples who first pointed out to me how we all need additional glass on these areas, and this was from the feedback to him of hundreds of boat owners, over decades...
By far, the wing tunnel's, mid, longitudinal seam, is the most vulnerable. This hard spot, has the panel on each side flexing when pounded, and it hinges here!!!

My new engine location, runners moved forward, fewer winches, sailing as a sloop, 4' taller rig, and switching to "dry" wing locker hatches, were also all John's ideas. They were all great ideas...

While the UVs in the tropics is harder on the rig, epoxy and paint, (making opaque primer more important), in higher latitudes, the puddles of water on the low end of every single stringer, (from condensation), becomes a primary issue. Most rot of these boats, is from fresh water condensation. It can collect a few spoonfuls, on each of say... 50 hard to reach places, OVER ONE NIGHT. This is why really good epoxy jobs on the interior is so important, and why CC hulls, (with fewer frames and no stringers), are so much less vulnerable. They can be more completely sealed, are easier to wipe and paint, and have fewer moisture traps. As a slight improvement, my SC 28 had stringers with horizontal top surfaces, which prevented pooling, and helped solve the problem. I believe that Roy put huge fillets on the top of his, for the same reason.

Another thing with cold climates... If it freezes, it is really hard on hatches, as well as nooks and crannies that can contain water. The expanding Ice can wreck havoc.

I did try Systems Three's water based LP in the cockpit's sub floor. I had done year long experiments first, and knew it had poorer UV resistance than AwlGrip, but this area was totally out of the Sun. It has one big advantage! Unlike regular LPs, (that get little blisters if water pools on it for months), The flat looking Systems Three stuff is HARD, tough, and impervious to blisters. It is now 18 years later, always wet in there, and gets fuel all over it. STILL PERFECT. I'm hoping better products come out soon. I understand that a new AwlGrip product, (not AwlCraft). is on the drawing board. It is supposed to be as tough, but more repairable.

M.

rossad · 25-11-2012, 19:32

Well said Mark Johnson you are talking from experience and you cannot beat experience. Yes there are many ways to skin a cat or fillet a fish and you will find in a fish shop they all do it the same way, the way they are taught by a master.
Any body can talk the talk but when it comes to walk the walk its a different matter.
Sailing these Searunners are easy when they are prepared right.
Short cutting inside close to a peninsula eventually will spell disaster.
Planning with all the tools you have takes time so be patient.
and always check you decks before you start your engine.

Cavalier MK2 · 25-11-2012, 20:02

I'm reminded of the folk dance the 3 step 1/2 step. "take 2 steps forward and 1 step back...' Tis truly a good idea to get a 100% bond on those cured coats though. For those places where a mirror finish is not needed a soft pad on the sander or even hand keying can save some of the hokey pokey.....the extra glass on the chines should be on the outside, those inside joints have plenty. Those LP blisters can also form on the topsides if you are passage making on the same tack and things immerse for a few weeks so be careful.....

rossad · 25-11-2012, 20:14

Lets not forget a proud owner of a perfect vessel is often the one to respect.

Maren · 30-11-2012, 08:23

Quick post on getting a Searunner Owner's list going. I have spoken with John Marples and I'll will be redoing his sites (Searunner Design Partnership & Marples Marine) which will also host the Owners List and perhaps a forum for builders or renovators. I am shooting for early next year to have a working prototype done.

stevelf · 30-11-2012, 19:15

It was suggested that I re-post this on this thread...:

Hi, there, all-- my name is Steve and I have been lurking-- 1st time poster....

OK, please don't flame me here but I really would appreciate your various experience to help me make a good decision here...
First off, I am 58 yrs. old, a lifetime sailor-- mostly Nacra beachcats, a 5.5 meter my last boat, although I sold Morgans in MDR for years and sailed them A LOT..... but I am clearly a multi-hull guy, ideally.

I have been looking for a CHEAP way to enter into sailboat ownership for months now...
I have been offered a 32' Brown trimaran , basically for free at a local (not telling you, YET...! ) marina....
Issues are:

1) no motor-- I plan to use it as a SAILboat, somehow (Craigslist/ e-bay..??) acquiring a 10-15 horse outboard that I will figure a way to attach to the center transom, for navigating into marinas or getting out of trouble....

2) starrboard-side rot on the deck and vertical deckhouse section--- it's 3/8 ply, and I will fix this-- been in the carpentry trade for 40+ years now... you can gingerly walk on the deck at-present, but NEEDS TO BE REPLACED.... some leaking into the main cabin, not a lot, but some...

3) rough-looking-- haven't seen the bottom yet. I spent 2+ hours tap-tap-tapping the entire boat to check for dry rot. Only as above...

4) I am cash-strapped..... a bit.... They want the fees for taking out of the water, power-spraying it, and the time it takes me to sand/ paint the bottom and sides, which takes $$$$, and probably some surprises....

5) mainsail looks good, NO JIB....

That's it-- the boat has personality... if I could only find a "reasonable" live-aboard slip where I could focus on the fixing part (Bay area...), I could maybe swing this....

I appreciate your thoughts.... sorry the picture is SO tiny-- it's the best I could do...
It must be a home-built Jim Brown design...??

Randy · 01-12-2012, 02:57

Welcome Steve,

It doesn't look like a Brown to me, his designs are for a 31 or 34 in that size range but some builders/owners bastardized the designs.
If you've been reading this thread why don't you get that buying a hulk is outrageously expensive in both time and money. Sometimes people need projects as therapy I guess. The guy is giving it away because he knows its value don't you think?
Good luck on that, Randy

Mark Johnson · 01-12-2012, 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maren

Quick post on getting a Searunner Owner's list going. I have spoken with John Marples and I'll will be redoing his sites (Searunner Design Partnership & Marples Marine) which will also host the Owners List and perhaps a forum for builders or renovators. I am shooting for early next year to have a working prototype done.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with Maren. Thanks for your efforts...

M.

Mark Johnson · 01-12-2012, 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy

Welcome Steve,

It doesn't look like a Brown to me, his designs are for a 31 or 34 in that size range but some builders/owners bastardized the designs.
If you've been reading this thread why don't you get that buying a hulk is outrageously expensive in both time and money. Sometimes people need projects as therapy I guess. The guy is giving it away because he knows its value don't you think?
Good luck on that, Randy

Agreed on all counts Randy! As small as the photo is... looks like an old Piver to me. (V hulls & hollow bow)

Even as "therapy", new construction is sooo much more gratifying. Especially in the 31' or under size... When you realize that you're poring tens of thousands, and years of your life, into a dead boat of obsolete design, serious depression can set in instead.

IMO... "free" isn't really free, here. I have found that in both houses and boats, "minor" renovations make sense, but really major renovations are far more work than starting from scratch. What's major VS minor? That's the judgement call, but this one is MAJOR!

M.

Maren · 01-12-2012, 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

Agreed on all counts Randy! As small as the photo is... looks like an old Piver to me. (V hulls & hollow bow)

Even as "therapy", new construction is sooo much more gratifying. Especially in the 31' or under size...

Randy/Mark - I frankly can't tell. Way too small for me to see.

Mark - Doing it with a Seaclipper 20 now. And then on to the 44CC assuming I get to stay in place for a while. Also the efforts are in part to get/give input on other SC20.

Cavalier MK2 · 01-12-2012, 08:49

Something as basic as a Piver is a little different story. One of my friends in Canada has kept a Piver going through the worst catastrophes. What it requires is a different approach. There is nothing that can't be fixed with a haul up the beach and a trip to the lumber store and thats all you should do because there is no market demand for a Piver. A solid one will take you all the same places as more modern boats with perhaps less worry about the knocks of a knockabout.

A Searunner is a more complicated beast and warrants some of the extra effort. If you like Searunners and want to build one don't run away from the basket cases. look for the cheap freebies with good gear. The money you save on a new build getting all the hardware, mast, boom, pulpits, bolts etc....can save a huge amount of time and money. Like 1/3rd of the total build cost. That easily pays off the time with the wrenches and saws. If you title the hulk before you start you save time and money when its launching time for the "rebuild". If some of the gear isn't up to the glitter of your new baby it will keep you sailing while you slave for the polished items....

rossad · 01-12-2012, 14:33

stevelf. If your wanting a live aboard a yacht to live on the water ... buy one that floats and works not one that you have to rebuild. If you want a project and live on the land and want a challenge then go for that... But remember most people never meet their goals with boats and do up's.

rossad · 01-12-2012, 14:46

Maren
Yes yes great. I am sure all of us shall be looking forward to it. Hopefully you can get all the other Searunner owners whom tried to get on the original site but couldnt. Would you take all the information off the original owners list or would you compile a completely new list.
It is with interest for me to have a data bank that you could change yourself and register you own searunner and with the new owner this would be part of the exchanging the new vessel. All the other stuff like where its gone and what its had done to it could all be put uploaded from the owner. Like a vault of information that creates a saving of these great boats. I would like also to see a bianually Tri meet for all and only Tri owners. I would travel accross the world for that.

stevelf · 01-12-2012, 22:26

OK-- here goes-- wow, the photos really tell the story....

Well, have a gander... I have more, lots more photos, but am af'eard to show 'em to you........

thanks for your perusing, and, please be courteous........

Respectfully,
Steve