Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

[sailorcherry]

Here's a pre and post refit market value poll of sorts that I think may help Riki, and future readers, with his choices.

Opinions, in percentage, of what the purchase price should be and then once fully restored vs your avg non storm damaged cat.

1- What's the market value of a storm damaged cat he finds that was not given a salvaged titled and hulls never holed but needs new rig, hardware and extensive fiberglass deck repairs?

2- What's the market value of a salvaged titled cat with the issues above and was holed say 2-3 times?

3 - And same as #2 but it sunk, needs not just new wiring and electronics but also headliner and cushions due to mold?

[sailorcherry]

Here's the yw ad: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2006/Lagoon-41-3215689/#.Wy6J7MtlA0M

It says you can have a $200k cat for a 1/3 of the price, the list price is 89k. So is the broker basically divulging that it can be had for $66k?

Also, says it needs mast, rudder and some other stuff as well and 10% of the glass work to finish (imo, more like 20%, pretty rough still, right?).

What's your guess on the cost for all that? By a yard and by someone who can do most of the work but not the rigging.

Like I've said, I am trying to help my buddy who has the time, some dough, is single with lots of boat ownership and sailing experience under his belt with light boatwrights skills (no major mechanical or rigging exp to my knowledge).

Originally Posted by drcat

Take a look on Craigslist south Florida- in Catamaran category there is a 2006 Lagoon410 for $89K in Virgin Gorda. Was on the hard (so not submerged), has had some repairs,now needs rudders and mast. Was listed for $69K a few weeks ago but asking price upped to $89K as I suspect more work was done. Ad indicates a mast can be obtained for $5K on island. It is also listed on Yachtworld, but you might have greater bargaining power dealing directly with owner on Craigslist. One thing - boatyard fee is $1300 per month which can start adding up if your DIY repairs take a long time

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by sailorcherry

Here's a pre and post refit market value poll of sorts that I think may help Riki, and future readers, with his choices.

Opinions, in percentage, of what the purchase price should be and then once fully restored vs your avg non storm damaged cat.

1- What's the market value of a storm damaged cat he finds that was not given a salvaged titled and hulls never holed but needs new rig, hardware and extensive fiberglass deck repairs?

2- What's the market value of a salvaged titled cat with the issues above and was holed say 2-3 times?

3 - And same as #2 but it sunk, needs not just new wiring and electronics but also headliner and cushions due to mold?

Salvage title cars are worth 20% to 40% less and that is after they are fixed up. I think a stolen car that was recovered intact after the insurance company already wrote it off would be more toward the 20% and a wrecked but repaired car would be more like 40% off. Boats might not be too far from these figures. That's a good starting point.

[riki]

Originally Posted by sailorcherry

Here's a pre and post refit market value poll of sorts that I think may help Riki, and future readers, with his choices.

Opinions, in percentage, of what the purchase price should be and then once fully restored vs your avg non storm damaged cat.

1- What's the market value of a storm damaged cat he finds that was not given a salvaged titled and hulls never holed but needs new rig, hardware and extensive fiberglass deck repairs?

2- What's the market value of a salvaged titled cat with the issues above and was holed say 2-3 times?

3 - And same as #2 but it sunk, needs not just new wiring and electronics but also headliner and cushions due to mold?

Great idea, it's interesting to put down some numbers just to have an idea.
An approximative idea opinion i reached, is that the cat, once fixed, *should* not cost more that 50/60% than a similar one in shape. At this % should be added the number of hours, value of risk.....

For example, this is a cat that i might be interested in: how much would you pay based on pictures and description? Difficult i know....but this is what we have.

http://www.yachtsalvage.com/Listings/YS180153.htm

[riki]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Salvage title cars are worth 20% to 40% less and that is after they are fixed up. I think a stolen car that was recovered intact after the insurance company already wrote it off would be more toward the 20% and a wrecked but repaired car would be more like 40% off. Boats might not be too far from these figures. That's a good starting point.

I think that a properly documented restoration should make a difference. That said, i never saw a cat costing 40/50% less than average and never saw an addreporting that the vessel is a restored wreak.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by riki

I think that a properly documented restoration should make a difference. That said, i never saw a cat costing 40/50% less than average and never saw an addreporting that the vessel is a restored wreak.

I don't know how it works in the rest of the world but in the US the car or boat gets a "Salvage" Title once it is written off by the insurance company. Sometimes it's minor but most times it's major. If you are buying a vehicle or vessel with the words "Salvage" on the title then you might be hesitant and therefore want a better deal. I bought a salvage car and got a better deal but I knew it was that way from the beginning.


A hurricane wrecked boat is worth less (not worthless) no matter how good the repairs and that is just the way it is. I have seen ads showing that a boat was wrecked/sunk btw.

[sailorcherry]

Any surveyors or brokers on here please feel free to criticize my figures

My assessment, which is NOT based on personal experience of owning a salvaged boat (project sure, but not a hurricane boat) but from years of reading boat price based articles and especially from analyzing YW, SL, CL listing prices of all kinds of boats (cats too). Keeping in mind that boat prices, like the economy, fluctuate and that catamarans have been holding their value better than monos due to supply and demand. Being done to a professional standard, either all yard or DIY plus some yard. Taking into account all mast, standing and running rigging is new, motors were not damaged or replaced and gear/hardware/systems within 3 years old.
This is my assessment:

1) 30-35% purchase, MV post refit 85% - 90%(remember clean title, hulls or bridgedeck not holed).

2) 20% purchase, MV post refit 70%. Salvage title.

3) 5-10% purchase, 55% - 65%. Salvage title.

There is a well documented one, he published a book about it. He made a pretty penny too!
All said and done, his passed survey but cosmetically it was not pretty, at all. Read on a forum the second owner after the one who bought it from the original owner who restored her paid a little over half market value (so maybe PO before them 65%?). Nearly all the work was done by the PO, most were used parts and he did not have a boatwright background (he said he was a handyman around his house) and he also had to modify the mast he bought to fit (sent the wrong one!).

[sailorcherry]

I actually just googled vessel salvage title. Not a lot came up but a forum post referred to that not all states have a law that say salvage must be on the title. Only spent a minute on it, but I didn't find any list showing which states do.

[Cadence]

An insurance co. is going to take the cheapest route out. Maybe if someone has the skills and time they can make out if the boat is at their location. If a boat needs to be relocated forget it.

[riki]

Originally Posted by sailorcherry

I actually just googled vessel salvage title. Not a lot came up but a forum post referred to that not all states have a law that say salvage must be on the title. Only spent a minute on it, but I didn't find any list showing which states do.

I have no idea about how things go, but i would bet that 90% of fixed salvaged boats go into the market as "as new" boats.

[mikedefieslife]

Don't count on this being a 100% fix to the problem. I installed one recently with heavy new heavy gauge cables throughout but on it can still take a couple of presses of the button to get the brand new starter to kick into life.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by sailorcherry

I actually just googled vessel salvage title. Not a lot came up but a forum post referred to that not all states have a law that say salvage must be on the title. Only spent a minute on it, but I didn't find any list showing which states do.

I did the same search and got the same results after reading your post. New Jersey does not issue a salvage title on boats. I guess there may be others. I wonder how other countries deal with this?

I do believe that my original statement is correct and that is that a repaired hurricane damaged or any damaged boat is worth considerably less than a non-damaged boat. And by damaged I mean submerged or partially submerged, capsized, flipped atc. The best boats are the ones that were damaged on the hard. I think a prudent buyer would always wonder if water got to the core in a boat that was submerged and what other gremlins might be hiding.

I would.

[drcat]

responding to Sailorcherry
As far as the price for making 2 DIY rudders. I have not built a rudder other than for a dingy. However, take a look at the Feb 7 2018 youtube post for Sailing Zingaro. He has a catamaran with lifting type rudders but the design would be similar for this lagoon. He lost one rudder and decided to build 2 rudders. Total cost to build 2 rudders in Cayman Islands was $670 with $50 for alum tubes, $30 for alum sheet, $140 for fab and welding, $150 for 1 gal west system epoxy and hardener and $225 for a 4' by 8' foam sheet called Cura (sp) board. He did not list cost for fiberglas cloth and he did not gelcoat or fair them with epoxy in the video. It took Zingaro 4 days to make the 2 rudders in a fairly primitive set up. I would think you would use 304 or 316 SS tubes and SS sheet or tabs for the Lagoon and you might need more foam sheets if the Lagoon rudders are larger. Both these items would up the cost. Another cruiser family Sailing Trio Travels will soon be having 2 rudders made for their 40'+ cat in Mexico. They lost one rudder 6 months ago and have been sailing with 1 rudder for 6 months. Their upcoming youtube postings might reveal some costs and design . Hope this is helpful.

[sailorcherry]

I know what you mean, there should always be a discount. Thats why I thought I would make that poll, care to take it?

Re submerged: yes to me it would get a bigger discount than just a boat with storm damage for a dismasting abd costmetic deck repairs or holed on thr hard like you mentioned. However, I would take it case by case. It would be MUCH more concerning to me if they were submerged and holed vs just capsized and submerged with no holing and considering too how the builder layed up those hulls, with what and how.

Originally Posted by Sand crab

I do believe that my original statement is correct and that is that a repaired hurricane damaged or any damaged boat is worth considerably less than a non-damaged boat. And by damaged I mean submerged or partially submerged, capsized, flipped atc. The best boats are the ones that were damaged on the hard. I think a prudent buyer would always wonder if water got to the core in a boat that was submerged and what other gremlins might be hiding.

I would.

[sailorcherry]

Great info, thank you
Did that cost include labor (Cayman Is work for two rudders)? I am guessing not and smart guy to make two.

Care to take my poll, btw?

Originally Posted by drcat

responding to Sailorcherry
As far as the price for making 2 DIY rudders. I have not built a rudder other than for a dingy. However, take a look at the Feb 7 2018 youtube post for Sailing Zingaro. He has a catamaran with lifting type rudders but the design would be similar for this lagoon. He lost one rudder and decided to build 2 rudders. Total cost to build 2 rudders in Cayman Islands was $670 with $50 for alum tubes, $30 for alum sheet, $140 for fab and welding, $150 for 1 gal west system epoxy and hardener and $225 for a 4' by 8' foam sheet called Cura (sp) board. He did not list cost for fiberglas cloth and he did not gelcoat or fair them with epoxy in the video. It took Zingaro 4 days to make the 2 rudders in a fairly primitive set up. I would think you would use 304 or 316 SS tubes and SS sheet or tabs for the Lagoon and you might need more foam sheets if the Lagoon rudders are larger. Both these items would up the cost. Another cruiser family Sailing Trio Travels will soon be having 2 rudders made for their 40'+ cat in Mexico. They lost one rudder 6 months ago and have been sailing with 1 rudder for 6 months. Their upcoming youtube postings might reveal some costs and design . Hope this is helpful.