Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by sailorcherry

Out of curiosity, because I wonder how many actually fully restore a cane cat or give up along the way, did he go with keeping her as a powercat or go all out and make her sailable again? If so, what do think was the total cost and time to bring her back?

My friend, semi-retired, no wife/gf, kids, pets etc, has the time, money and knowhow to buy a salvage cat in the Carib. But he has said cruiser friends say masts are hard to come by so he uncertain about a salvage cat.

The boat was extensively hurricane damaged in Texas so that was convenient. He repowered it and is getting a new mast from from Sparcraft in North Carolina. He's heading that way just to make things easier. It's far from complete but he probably has less than 100K into it so far but that might be before the new rig. He is still spending....

[alansmith]

Riki, a couple more things for you to contemplate. In carpentry...a general rule is that everything has to be plumb, straight, and square. My goodness...the land carpenters have such a nice deal going compared to marine craftsmen.

On a boat everything is flared. Very few items are straight because they have to conform to the hull shape. It is a nightmare to fit things. Here is how it goes...generally speaking....you take a piece of cardboard and scribe a line to fit the hull shape or the curving roofline. You cut it and fit it. Then keep working at it until you have a reasonable fit. You can get away with a little over cutting. Why? Because you can fiberglass and epoxy in those edges that won’t be seen anyway. If I told you that for you to put a cabinet on a straight wall...it would take minutes to calculate and measure that cabinet and how it would join the floor and wall. When you have to adjoin a new cabinet to a flared hull....oh...it ....is....so ....much...fun. What took minutes in a regular house can take hours to cut a template that will fit the space. Then you have the fun of figuring out how to attach it. Do you glass it in? Do you put stringers along the hull and glass them in....and then screw the cabinetry to the stringers?

Is it impossible ...No....but it takes time....a lot of time.

Riki, I want to give you a very good piece of advice....Please read Atol’s 70 page write up called “modernizing a Proust Elite 37”....it is found in the multihull section of the forum. This took him 5 full years of his life. Keep in mind that he has rebuilt many boats and is proficient and thrifty (knows how to get the most for his money).

His boat had clean hulls and had sat for quite a few years with no damage. Read it and get an idea of what you are looking at in a damaged boat.....it is just surreal how much time and money it can cost.

I won’t even go into what it is like to lay on your back and try and wet out fiberglass while you lay twisted like a pretzel. You are fighting gravity, stickiness, and the epoxy curing too quickly to work with. It is just something to think about. There are many places on a boat that are so difficult to do work in....just due to space...things in the way....gravity...human flexibility....cure times.....

Best of luck sir....

[riki]

Originally Posted by alansmith

Riki, a couple more things for you to contemplate. In carpentry...a general rule is that everything has to be plumb, straight, and square. My goodness...the land carpenters have such a nice deal going compared to marine craftsmen.

On a boat everything is flared. Very few items are straight because they have to conform to the hull shape. It is a nightmare to fit things. Here is how it goes...generally speaking....you take a piece of cardboard and scribe a line to fit the hull shape or the curving roofline. You cut it and fit it. Then keep working at it until you have a reasonable fit. You can get away with a little over cutting. Why? Because you can fiberglass and epoxy in those edges that won’t be seen anyway. If I told you that for you to put a cabinet on a straight wall...it would take minutes to calculate and measure that cabinet and how it would join the floor and wall. When you have to adjoin a new cabinet to a flared hull....oh...it ....is....so ....much...fun. What took minutes in a regular house can take hours to cut a template that will fit the space. Then you have the fun of figuring out how to attach it. Do you glass it in? Do you put stringers along the hull and glass them in....and then screw the cabinetry to the stringers?

Is it impossible ...No....but it takes time....a lot of time.

Riki, I want to give you a very good piece of advice....Please read Atol’s 70 page write up called “modernizing a Proust Elite 37”....it is found in the multihull section of the forum. This took him 5 full years of his life. Keep in mind that he has rebuilt many boats and is proficient and thrifty (knows how to get the most for his money).

His boat had clean hulls and had sat for quite a few years with no damage. Read it and get an idea of what you are looking at in a damaged boat.....it is just surreal how much time and money it can cost.

I won’t even go into what it is like to lay on your back and try and wet out fiberglass while you lay twisted like a pretzel. You are fighting gravity, stickiness, and the epoxy curing too quickly to work with. It is just something to think about. There are many places on a boat that are so difficult to do work in....just due to space...things in the way....gravity...human flexibility....cure times.....

Best of luck sir....

that won't be asy for me that i'm 1,88 for 90kg!!
Thank you Alan, very good suggestions that i appreciate very much.
But that said, i might sound a bit too confident, but carpentry is what worries me the less. Most of the boats i saw didn't sink 100%, "just" one or both hulls, and in any case i won't be interested in a completelly sunk boat, that's the minimum requirement i planned for myself in case i finally decide to follow this path: a 100% sunk vessel is a no go so i am confident that in any case i will be able to fix what i'll find without having to go into major renovation. And hopefully i'll be able to use some parts that i'll need to change as template.
At the end it all comes down to a simple thing, the one you said: find the cherry. It might be more than 50% of the all the work.
And now to Atoll's thread.
Cheers.

[ddugger]

Based on past hurricane experience - lost a 41 foot catch in 2004 in FL - I'm guessing you have already missed most of the good deals in the Caribbean. Boat insurance companies payout quickly and push things along pretty rapidly on salvage sales - as soon as the its possible.



The problems with a fixer-upper boat are two - the time can money it takes to fix it up and the lack of use and enjoyment time lost to this process which is usually years. Additionally, things like boat electrical systems - problematic at best, become nightmares once they have been submerged - partially or completely.



If you are on a budget, you might want to consider a 3 or 4 way partnership in a well founded boat. There are lots of people who want access to a boat they know - reaching them and qualifying them is more difficult. Working out a use schedules is the most complicated process and agree to rules of the partnership - maintenance costs, where the boat will be based, how conflicts will be resolved in advance - as well as how a partner is to be bought out when they want out.

[alansmith]

Riki, on my lunch hour at work. Thinking about your situation. Have you looked at the Wharram catamarans? I know there is one of them sitting down in South Africa that has a decent price and could easily be put into containers. Which makes them container prices instead of Deck Cargo.

The James Wharram cat derives from a different mind set. It is based on minimalism and simplicity. They are excellent boats and can be found all over the world. They are not for everyone. The guys who need air conditioning, icy margaritas, and 25 foot runabouts...well they just wouldn’t even think of a Wharram.

Riki, if you fall in love with sailing...and I hope you do...because there is nothing like moving through the water with just the wind in your sails...pulling into places that can only be reached by a boat....and you are not loaded with money....these boats have taken many many people all over the world. Read up on them before making a judgement. There is video blog on a Wharram owner....maybe an Aussie married to a Mongolian lady....think the blog is called “LuckyFish”...you can get some great input about the wharram boats.

Why do I mention them? They are simple boats. Anyone can fix them with just the minimum skills. They are rugged. They have a large extended group of users all over the world. They are easy to maintain (cost a fraction of big French Cats)...Shallow draft. Outboard motors usually. Both of my boats are powered by outboards and I would not want a diesel inboard for them....So many ways to do boating, da?

Anyhow...think about it. You can see them on Yachtworld, and many other places....just a thought....respects, alan

[Mr B]

My boat cost me 15 grand to buy back from the insurers who wrote it off,
It cost me 8 grand to ship it 700 miles to a local yard to be repaired,
It has taken 6 years as I got a dud repairer, Which cost me 25 grand in unrecoverable costs as he is a declared bankrupt and owns nothing,

Then I got a good repairer to cut out the original repairs totally and start from scratch,
Both hulls have been fully repaired and beefed up as well as I want to park it on beaches with the tide out.

I am currently putting all the gear back in it,
The salvagers had cut all the wiring and plumbing out to get at the inside hulls,
It a mess that I am slowly repairing,
But it will be back in the water this year as a fully seaworthy Blue Water vessel again,
Its a 34 foot long by 14 feet wide catamaran, Total cost about 90 grand,
65 grand with out the dud repairers costs added,
When I do sell it in a couple of years, I will still make a profit on it,

Fibreglass is not effected by being submerged,
The core wood is,
Most parts can be bought direct from the manufacturers, Ropes and fittings, electrics.
If it has marine on it, It will cost you three times what its worth, Avoid it,
There is plenty of second hand gear out there, Google is your friend,
Wrecked boats have good standing gear on them, Use that, you can get it very cheaply,
A 12 metre mast can be shipped any where on a semi trailer on top of a general load of goods, at a reasonable price,
Buy a locally wrecked hurricane boat, It will save you thousands which can be put into your boat repairs,

Cheers, Brian,

[drcat]

Take a look on Craigslist south Florida- in Catamaran category there is a 2006 Lagoon410 for $89K in Virgin Gorda. Was on the hard (so not submerged), has had some repairs,now needs rudders and mast. Was listed for $69K a few weeks ago but asking price upped to $89K as I suspect more work was done. Ad indicates a mast can be obtained for $5K on island. It is also listed on Yachtworld, but you might have greater bargaining power dealing directly with owner on Craigslist. One thing - boatyard fee is $1300 per month which can start adding up if your DIY repairs take a long time

[riki]

Originally Posted by alansmith

Riki, on my lunch hour at work. Thinking about your situation. Have you looked at the Wharram catamarans? I know there is one of them sitting down in South Africa that has a decent price and could easily be put into containers. Which makes them container prices instead of Deck Cargo.

The James Wharram cat derives from a different mind set. It is based on minimalism and simplicity. They are excellent boats and can be found all over the world. They are not for everyone. The guys who need air conditioning, icy margaritas, and 25 foot runabouts...well they just wouldn’t even think of a Wharram.

Riki, if you fall in love with sailing...and I hope you do...because there is nothing like moving through the water with just the wind in your sails...pulling into places that can only be reached by a boat....and you are not loaded with money....these boats have taken many many people all over the world. Read up on them before making a judgement. There is video blog on a Wharram owner....maybe an Aussie married to a Mongolian lady....think the blog is called “LuckyFish”...you can get some great input about the wharram boats.

Why do I mention them? They are simple boats. Anyone can fix them with just the minimum skills. They are rugged. They have a large extended group of users all over the world. They are easy to maintain (cost a fraction of big French Cats)...Shallow draft. Outboard motors usually. Both of my boats are powered by outboards and I would not want a diesel inboard for them....So many ways to do boating, da?

Anyhow...think about it. You can see them on Yachtworld, and many other places....just a thought....respects, alan

Hey Alan, thank you for thinking at my situation in your break time
I never saw a wharram live, but saw many in pictures, videos, read a lot about them and even had a moment that i was thinking about building one. But even if i tried hard to like these cats, no way, i know that i would end up getting something that i don't like. Not that i absolutelly need all kind of comforts, but it's just a bit too "spartan" and also don't really like the design.
Often i look after australian cat designers that do offer a variety of cats being a kind of way in the middle between the french all in cats and the wharrams for a reasonable price, and actually more than once saw interesting things.....but in that case i'll have to deal with logistics, first to go and see a boat absolutelly unknown, and then eventually a looooong way back....
cheers

[riki]

Originally Posted by Mr B

My boat cost me 15 grand to buy back from the insurers who wrote it off,
It cost me 8 grand to ship it 700 miles to a local yard to be repaired,
It has taken 6 years as I got a dud repairer, Which cost me 25 grand in unrecoverable costs as he is a declared bankrupt and owns nothing,

Then I got a good repairer to cut out the original repairs totally and start from scratch,
Both hulls have been fully repaired and beefed up as well as I want to park it on beaches with the tide out.

I am currently putting all the gear back in it,
The salvagers had cut all the wiring and plumbing out to get at the inside hulls,
It a mess that I am slowly repairing,
But it will be back in the water this year as a fully seaworthy Blue Water vessel again,
Its a 34 foot long by 14 feet wide catamaran, Total cost about 90 grand,
65 grand with out the dud repairers costs added,
When I do sell it in a couple of years, I will still make a profit on it,

Fibreglass is not effected by being submerged,
The core wood is,
Most parts can be bought direct from the manufacturers, Ropes and fittings, electrics.
If it has marine on it, It will cost you three times what its worth, Avoid it,
There is plenty of second hand gear out there, Google is your friend,
Wrecked boats have good standing gear on them, Use that, you can get it very cheaply,
A 12 metre mast can be shipped any where on a semi trailer on top of a general load of goods, at a reasonable price,
Buy a locally wrecked hurricane boat, It will save you thousands which can be put into your boat repairs,

Cheers, Brian,

Damn. The worse thing after loosing the boat is to loose it again with dishonest people that don't accomplish their tasks. Good ho hear that you found out your way.
Now what it's interesting is even with a 25k loss you are going to get a profit when sold.....so IT IS POSSIBLE, and from what i can see from pics it was a very important damage.
Of course, not being submerged does make difference.....
Cheers

[riki]

Originally Posted by drcat

Take a look on Craigslist south Florida- in Catamaran category there is a 2006 Lagoon410 for $89K in Virgin Gorda. Was on the hard (so not submerged), has had some repairs,now needs rudders and mast. Was listed for $69K a few weeks ago but asking price upped to $89K as I suspect more work was done. Ad indicates a mast can be obtained for $5K on island. It is also listed on Yachtworld, but you might have greater bargaining power dealing directly with owner on Craigslist. One thing - boatyard fee is $1300 per month which can start adding up if your DIY repairs take a long time

Saw that boat on yachtworld and....tempting, for a few minutes but then i was considering that i does not make any sense, for me, to buy a salvaged boat and pay for it 85k and still have to work on it and buy the mast.
It's my opinion that a salvaged makes sense only for a very cheap price (25k and less) and repair it directly.....but paying other's fixes? uhm....

[ranchero76]

Here's my observation, many different sources, some public, some - not so much, of salvage catamaran market after Irma.
Everything below is my opinion based on information I've collected.

Like others already noted, best ones have been picked long time ago, by the "flippers", and re-sold shortly after (I suspect, some of them - already re-sold few times, with price increase every time).
Even many completely sunk boats were have been re-floated and resold for insane amount of money (like sunk Lagoon 560, completely sunk, re-floated (but with mast), it was listed at 200k or something like that and it's SOLD, believe it or not. Boat was complete trash).

I've seen some auction results, and sold prices also were totally insane, like partially sunk/dismasted/destroyed Lagoon 52's sold at 80-120K.

It's easy to imagine amount of scam artists playing games out there in hope to make easy money, looking for that final idiot who pays crazy price for what they call "THE DREAM".

So, whatever is left now - in even worse condition, can't be re-floated within somewhat reasonable period of time. One one hand, they actually might be priced more accordingly, because these wrecks don't look like a dream at all and can't be "quick fiberglassed" to look like a "dream", and therefore POSSIBLY less attractive for scam artists. But on other hand, well, they are exactly what they are - they can't be "quick fiberglassed" and motorsailed home.

Yes, you can fix one of them by yourself if you somehow bring it home or to the place where storage on hard and materials are cheap, but it will take years for sure (unless you have 100's of thousands to spend). If you're fine with that - go for it. I decided to look for alternatives for now.

[riki]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

Here's my observation, many different sources, some public, some - not so much, of salvage catamaran market after Irma.
Everything below is my opinion based on information I've collected.

Like others already noted, best ones have been picked long time ago, by the "flippers", and re-sold shortly after (I suspect, some of them - already re-sold few times, with price increase every time).
Even many completely sunk boats were have been re-floated and resold for insane amount of money (like sunk Lagoon 560, completely sunk, re-floated (but with mast), it was listed at 200k or something like that and it's SOLD, believe it or not. Boat was complete trash).

I've seen some auction results, and sold prices also were totally insane, like partially sunk/dismasted/destroyed Lagoon 52's sold at 80-120K.

It's easy to imagine amount of scam artists playing games out there in hope to make easy money, looking for that final idiot who pays crazy price for what they call "THE DREAM".

So, whatever is left now - in even worse condition, can't be re-floated within somewhat reasonable period of time. One one hand, they actually might be priced more accordingly, because these wrecks don't look like a dream at all and can't be "quick fiberglassed" to look like a "dream", and therefore POSSIBLY less attractive for scam artists. But on other hand, well, they are exactly what they are - they can't be "quick fiberglassed" and motorsailed home.

Yes, you can fix one of them by yourself if you somehow bring it home or to the place where storage on hard and materials are cheap, but it will take years for sure (unless you have 100's of thousands to spend). If you're fine with that - go for it. I decided to look for alternatives for now.

I have no direct experience about what was available right after the hurricanes season, but i am sure that all what worth being bought it did disappear since months. I recently found 2 boats that come from salvage yards, one it's the above lagoon but i have no idea about it; another one it's a leopard 39 sitting in StMartin sold for 20k in auction process a fewmonths ago and now available again without any kind of repair for 80K
I can't understand somebody spending this $$ for wreck when for the same price, after repairs, can buy something similar just a bit older.....go understand.
Thanks for the input.

[riki]

I wonder when should be the right period to be in the area to get into something that worth? Sept/oct hurricanes season.....how long after do insurances to get rid of boats and auctions start?

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by riki

...another one it's a leopard 39 sitting in StMartin sold for 20k in auction process a fewmonths ago and now available again without any kind of repair for 80K

That's another confirmation of my words. Scam artists appear anywhere where they sniff money.

Originally Posted by riki

I wonder when should be the right period to be in the area to get into something that worth? Sept/oct hurricanes season.....how long after do insurances to get rid of boats and auctions start?

Right after hurricane . BUT! You must be familiar with whole process, know some people on the Islands who can ACTUALLY help you (I wasn't able to find such person(s) after Irma), know how and where you will be living during search/purchasing/repairing, be friendly and communicable person to deal with insurance companies, adjusters, yard owners, boat owners...

If you're not old, if you're optimistic, knowledgeable person it can be fun challenge/adventure...or not

[sailorcherry]

This is some of the best, most well written breakdown of the realism of boat refitting advice I have read on this forum, imho.

Riki, I totally second Alan's suggestion to spend the time to go thru every page of Atoll's thread. He has kindly shared the chronicles of his Prout Elite journey. I am no expert but I know a some legit, good boatwrights and his work is tip top and writing style descriptive, light hearted and enjoyable to read.

Originally Posted by alansmith

Riki, a couple more things for you to contemplate. In carpentry...a general rule is that everything has to be plumb, straight, and square. My goodness...the land carpenters have such a nice deal going compared to marine craftsmen.

On a boat everything is flared. Very few items are straight because they have to conform to the hull shape. It is a nightmare to fit things. Here is how it goes...generally speaking....you take a piece of cardboard and scribe a line to fit the hull shape or the curving roofline. You cut it and fit it. Then keep working at it until you have a reasonable fit. You can get away with a little over cutting. Why? Because you can fiberglass and epoxy in those edges that won’t be seen anyway. If I told you that for you to put a cabinet on a straight wall...it would take minutes to calculate and measure that cabinet and how it would join the floor and wall. When you have to adjoin a new cabinet to a flared hull....oh...it ....is....so ....much...fun. What took minutes in a regular house can take hours to cut a template that will fit the space. Then you have the fun of figuring out how to attach it. Do you glass it in? Do you put stringers along the hull and glass them in....and then screw the cabinetry to the stringers?

Is it impossible ...No....but it takes time....a lot of time.

Riki, I want to give you a very good piece of advice....Please read Atol’s 70 page write up called “modernizing a Proust Elite 37”....it is found in the multihull section of the forum. This took him 5 full years of his life. Keep in mind that he has rebuilt many boats and is proficient and thrifty (knows how to get the most for his money).

His boat had clean hulls and had sat for quite a few years with no damage. Read it and get an idea of what you are looking at in a damaged boat.....it is just surreal how much time and money it can cost.

I won’t even go into what it is like to lay on your back and try and wet out fiberglass while you lay twisted like a pretzel. You are fighting gravity, stickiness, and the epoxy curing too quickly to work with. It is just something to think about. There are many places on a boat that are so difficult to do work in....just due to space...things in the way....gravity...human flexibility....cure times.....

Best of luck sir....