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Old 10-11-2009, 04:50   #16
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The recent economic downturn has been quite revealing:

Power boats - Lots for sale, major price reduction.

Monohulls - Plenty on the market, but prices well down

Catamarans - prices down somewhat on the big cats, but market still relatively bouyant.
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Old 10-11-2009, 04:58   #17
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In our area I've seen, sailors moving from performance multi's to monos when its time to go cruising. Two local sailors have given up there Farriers and bought mono's with plans of cruising.

I have also seen power boaters move to larger cats like the Lagoon, PDQ's,,,. This makes sense to me, layouts are similar, no healing, twin engine...... Who was the fellow here that bought the big St Francis? He moved from power didn't he?

I think the future of big cats is very bright, there are a whole lot more power boaters then then sailors. And anytime we get a power boat off the water and replace it with sail it's a good thing.
Those Farrier owners who moved to a mono made a big downgrade in sailing performance in exchange for interior volume/load capacity, and I'm sure it's not without serious regrets (even if they rationalize the overall trade-off was worth it). If they weren't restrained by budget they'd have certainly moved to a Dragonfly 1200, Atlantic 42 or other larger performance multi that could give them adequate cruising comfort and interior accommodations. Ask them.... I'd bet a nice dinner that budget was the key factor driving the decision to go mono. (Better to go with what you can afford than not to go). If the boats I mentioned were available for the same price as the mono they would never even consider the mono.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:38   #18
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I run a monohull power boat, but that is basically like owning a car here. 40 islands...etc. basic transportation.

I also don't think it is accurate to compare tri's to catamarans. A tri is basically a monohull with outriggers. The same internal space limitations, greater issues with slip space, greater stresses on the rigs, etc. And draft. A Dragonfly draws something over six feet, doesn't it?

True, you don't get the whole heeling thing with a tri, but other than that, why would you want one over a monohull?
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Old 10-11-2009, 09:47   #19
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I run a monohull power boat, but that is basically like owning a car here. 40 islands...etc. basic transportation.

I also don't think it is accurate to compare tri's to catamarans. A tri is basically a monohull with outriggers. The same internal space limitations, greater issues with slip space, greater stresses on the rigs, etc. And draft. A Dragonfly draws something over six feet, doesn't it?

True, you don't get the whole heeling thing with a tri, but other than that, why would you want one over a monohull?
Corection: A tri is not a monohull with outriggers -- the center hull form is designed very differently and generally has much less displacement and stability (by itself, without the floats) than a monohull would. As for draft, the Dragonfly 1200 has a kick-up centerboard and requires less than 3 feet of water with board and rudder lifted, or less then 4 feet of water with rudder-only (as in downwind sailing or motoring with centerboard up). Board full-down draft is approx. 6.5 feet and it points as high as a typical monohull performance cruiser.

I posted in another thread about some of the differences between sailing a monohull vs. a multi. Page 6 (scroll down) to post titled "Reef early, Reef for the gusts": Sink or Swim?

Some key points relevant to this thread:
Monohull displacement boats are like weebles -- when you push on them harder they don't go faster, they just lean over. Push even harder they lean even more. Knock them down they pop back up. Very forgiving of sloppy operation, but that doesn't necessarily translate to "safety". Soles and wet decks heeled at 30-degrees plus is normal but not safe for crew, nor comfortable.

Every boat has trade-offs. When I was looking to move up in size two years ago I wanted more interior room than my last tri and so I test-sailed a "racer-cruiser" monohull (a C&C 36). It had all the "go-fast" trappings (C-F mast, high-tech racing sails, epoxy/foam-cored laminate, etc.). We went out in 5-15 knots of wind, and at first it was under 10 knots and we were reaching in light air. It wasn't that much slower than my tri and I figured I could live with the trade-offs. Then we got a gust of about 15 knots and the boat heeled more, and I figured "OK now we'll see some acceleration" but it didn't go any faster! It was just more uncomfortable at hull speed. My tri would have heeled slightly (perhaps 5-10 degrees when pressed) and harden-up against the wind and accelerate to 10+ knots under that circumstance.

No monohull or cat I've tried sails as well as a tri and I'm spoiled, so I spent more than I wanted (another trade-off) but got what I wanted in a larger tri, with other compromises.

What I didn't write in the other post is that a tri generally has less interior room than a comparable length monohull, and although it is MUCH harder to knock it over -- if you do it won't self-right. (I thought it self-evident, especially given the title of that post: "Reef early, Reef for the gusts"). There is no perfect boat so we all choose our compromises, but if you want the best sailing, try a tri.
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Old 10-11-2009, 09:53   #20
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I would like to see the market move from a sailing barge to a simplier, and better sailing cat. The priority of sailing is moving to Accomodations. That's fine if you want to stay at the dock, but it's probably cheaper to actually buy a barge, and put a house on it. Like the ones in Sausalito if that's what you want.........i2f
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:00   #21
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I would like to see the market move from a sailing barge to a simplier, and better sailing cat. The priority of sailing is moving to Accomodations. That's fine if you want to stay at the dock, but it's probably cheaper to actually buy a barge, and put a house on it. Like the ones in Sausalito if that's what you want.........i2f
The "sailing barge" phenomenon is one of the things that keeps me from seriously entertaining a multi. If I went to a multi, I would want something that performs well on all points of sail (or at least reasonably well upwind) with a cruising load and had attractive lines. Admittedly, the latter is subjective, but I haven't seen this boat yet. The closest I've seen are some of the Wharram designs.
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:35   #22
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When someone says a tri 'sails better' than a cat, what does that mean, exactly? Points higher? Is faster?
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:38   #23
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Or alternatively if they stop dredging harbours , then there will be plenty of space, dredging is environmental vandalism.
Most all of the marinas in my area require periodic dredging. If not they eventually turn in to a salt marsh that only the ducks can use.
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:41   #24
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How about a convertible cat?

Instead of a "terminal trawler" you take down the rig and forget the sailing part when sailing becomes too much for the old body? Built with this in mind perhaps a little more engine and fuel capacity? Sure automated sail handling will become more available - and more expensive.

Dumb idea or brilliance - what say you?
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:08   #25
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To get back to the original question, I don't see the cat market changing much in the forseable future. There seems to be something for every one now. What I do see is an expansion of the power multi market especially the power tri or stabilized mono that Beau refers to. Without the sail rig or just a small downwind rig, or even a kite the beam can be seriously reduced and the loads reduced significantly to lower building costs.

Beau, Can you elaborate on the fast displacement hull designs that you propose, I would assume they could be applied to cats as well as tris with equal success. This may have better application to cruising boats as the planing designs are just too weight sensitive to accomodate most cruisers. Dave
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:14   #26
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I bet that boat design will continue to grow, and multi hulls will be made for their respective purposes. FOr some that is to be a luxury, for a others a speed thing. Cruising cats will increase in popularity and prices on older designs should go down. Catamarans will continue to be more expensive on the whole. just my thoughts,
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:55   #27
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SAILING BARGE

I believe many of the new designs are about accommodations, and not sailing. This is why I used the barge term.

Imagine is not a barge, and she doesn't physically represent the look of one. She does sail, and will point higher than most cruising boats. It's all a compromise. You may point higher in steep waves, but then again I will have space, and not roll in anchorage like a mono.

Go way back to the CSK boats, and they are pleasing to my eye, and sail upwind. This is the type of cat that needs to be built again, so they are not so damned expensive. Boats today are about carrying your land life with you to the boat, mono, or multi.

The Wharrams have the Polynesian look, are simple, and can be built rather inexpesively. They are not built for the BVI charter trade. They are simple, and built for a couple, or small family.

This is the same as Imagine. She has 3 berths, 2 heads, 1 shower. She is so simple she didn't even have a hot water heater until 3 years ago when I opened the business, and she became an apartment. She didn't have shore power, because she was built to live on the hook.

Many of the Aussie cats are built this way, and many have grace in their looks. Sometimes you just have to spend time with an item to appreciate it's finer qualities. Looking from the outside doesn't always give you an appreciation for something new. to you.....i2f
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Old 10-11-2009, 12:36   #28
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The advantages over catamarans are many.
They are more Monohull like inside.
In what way is this an advantage? I see the internal layout of a cat as being one of the great plusses over a monohull. (Or tri)

Sleeping areas are well seperated from living areas, the cockpit flows into the saloon without stairs, the saloon has good allround views....

The future? Probably the charter oriented boats will get bigger and heavier, hopefully the boats aimed at private buyers can get bigger without getting heavier.

I don't think any of them will get smaller or simpler.
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Old 10-11-2009, 13:48   #29
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I am still trying to see what possible advantage a tri has over a catamaran in terms of cruising. Isn't it still a choice of living down in a hole or up above the water?
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Old 10-11-2009, 13:57   #30
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A tri will get you into skinnier water. Most tris will sail closer to the wind, and in lighter air. A 36 tri has less room than a 36ft mono. Once again it's a compromise.

44, why don't you think they won't get more simple? Cold molded will keep them lighter, and exotic materials too, but that ups the cost.......i2f
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