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Old 06-05-2009, 18:31   #16
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I quote from my the 1992 newsletter on my website (sorry I am in Canada right now, the video footage and photos are in my office in the UK)
=========================
News from 1992
From a fax from Pete Benjamin, of Heritage Manufacturing, the S-African builders of the Sagitta: " My charter Sagitta Bojangles was put on the rocks at a place called Rooi Els. The charterers claim the anchor rope parted at 3am and they were awakened by horrible sounds of the boat grinding on the rocks.

To cut a long story short, when the tide went out they effected emergency repairs and the Sagitta was refloated on the following high tide by crowds of people - minus a keel and a badly damaged starboard hull as well. They motorsailed to Gordon's Bay and although the modules were awash the bloody thing didn't sink!!!!' It made national TV and I think that the safety aspects of the watertight compartments are not to be overlooked as is the incredible design feature that led her to being such a safe boat - Thanks folks!'

=======================
That wasn't just a seacock that fell off, but rather a 10ft x 2ft hole in the bottom of the boat

And then look here

'Thank God we're alive!' says skipper

=======================

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Old 06-05-2009, 18:36   #17
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Ireaney is right.

As I say in my Perfect Storm articles there are two common phrases used in survival situations

One is "Every man for himself"

the other is

"Women and children first"

I say no more

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

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Old 06-05-2009, 19:02   #18
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Originally Posted by Woods Designs View Post

.....
Finally, let’s put the risks of sailing any boat into perspective. According to the official 2001 US Coastguard figures, nearly 500 people died when boating. 350 were in open motor boats, 100 in kayaks/canoes, 50 in personal watercraft.

So I guess no one drowned when sailing in 2001 in the USA.

In comparison 24 people were killed skiing in British Columbia in the 2008/9 winter, while over 30 people drown each year in their cars in the UK.

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And what are some of your thoughts regarding these statistics and others? One thing I do appreciate about your post is that it gets at questions like: What are the real risks of sailing, how do they relate to other risks in life and are people's actions and decisions related to real life risks?
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Old 06-05-2009, 19:32   #19
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It seems there are much greater risks in ones life to worry about than over which is safer, a cat or a monohull. Its sort of like debating which is more likely to kill you, lightning or getting kicked by a giraffe.
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Old 06-05-2009, 20:00   #20
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Mr Woods' article is perfectly consistant with the statistical information I've discussed here in the past. In fact he summarizes that data very succinctly.

My Simpson Wildwind, a 34' cat, was holed during Huricane Isabel. In fact, a 5 by 12 FOOT hole was torn out of the starboard side. Damage control procedures were inaffective, to say the least.

This is the part that requires close attention from monohull aficionados. The hull flooded. a considerable amount of water washed through the interior to the other hull. But the cat floated. It had no ballasted keel to drag it to the bottom. In fact, the single, center-mounted 50hp Honda outboard was not submerged: It started normally. The boat was capable of travelling some distance (perhaps a hundred miles) under its own power with no repairs required.

This is only one case of a catamaran that sustained considerable damage (a total insurance loss) and was still able to protect its crew in 75 mph gusts. It only demonstrates the possibility that catamarans can be safe vessels in bad conditions.
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Old 06-05-2009, 20:10   #21
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Quote:
It's sort of like debating which is more likely to kill you, lightning or getting kicked by a giraffe.
How deep does the water have to be before they can't kick you? Could be helpful if you were outrunning Somalia pirates.

If you look at the stats on deaths, the serious issues are a combination of two key factors "drunk" and "stupid". You put the two together and you can end up dead or worse - kill someone and live. It's the top of all lists and the rest fall off very quickly. I'm not exaggerating with the word "very".

There are a potential for a great number of things that can go wrong (and have at least once). Giraffes are of course on the list of the more tame ones. Sinking boats require one important item - "life rafts". Most folks would claim they are less of a problem than a boat sinking or upside down.

Lightning and rogue waves are clearly way more dangerous as nothing can protect you from those on a bad day. The giraffe's sound like a better bet. If you can be kicked by a giraffe then you can't be far from shore. They don't swim that far. I think it's more of a shark thing than anything else. Giraffe's and lightning could be a problem. I wouldn't go drinking with one in the thunder storm.
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Old 06-05-2009, 20:47   #22
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Originally Posted by slomotion View Post

Most cruisers are coastal sailors/island hoppers and either do not cross oceans or do so very infrequently. As Richard points out, they have access to fairly reliable one or two day weather forecasts. As a result they are unlikely to be at sea in force 10 gales. And they are not particularly interested in data derived from full crewed, state of the art, race boats, people who sail the Southern Ocean, or J Boat keels for that matter. What they are interested in is how their particular boat in its particular condition will perform in whatever nasty conditions they are most likely to encounter.
I really like this thought.

Boat designs (mono or multi) are as diverse as the conditions, purposes and needs of sailing itself.

In terms of boat design and what boat to choose the intended purpose of the boat is the key factor.

If continuous ocean passage making is the goal and security is paramount, one set of criteria is used.

If coastal cruising another set can be used.

If racing another set can be used.

If you want a dockominium another set can be used.

Unsinkable boats? Several strategies for unsinkable boats. It's an engineering problem. Solutions cost weight and other compromises may need to be made (handling and sailing qualities for instance)

Consider the example of the holed cat going 100 miles under outboard power. That's great. Consider a proper dinghy/raft on a mono with proper exit gear - effectively it's the second hull of the cat.

People have sailed monos for centuries and a most everything is known about how to sail them safely.

Cats have been around forever as well but the "modern" cat is relatively new and extremely popular.

Sailing either design safely is about the design of the particular configuration, the crew skills and conditions to be overcome.

So giraffes and elephants - there is no need to try to evangelize, create converts or launch the spanish inquisition.

Different strokes for different folks.
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Old 06-05-2009, 21:01   #23
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I guess you are right, keeled monohulls have been around "for centuries", given that this is 2009 and the first keeled monohulls were built in the 1800's

I was once at a (UK) Coastguard liferaft demonstration. The Coastguard officer pulled the ripcord....

And nothing happened

"It wasn't supposed to do that" he said

I haven't been chased by an elephant yet, they ran away when I sailed too close, but have been chased by an angry hippo. Useful things, big engines on speedboats

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Old 06-05-2009, 21:10   #24
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Please - PLEASE tell me where one gets "fairly reliable one or two day weather forecasts" (grin)

I have been caught out in an intense squall with lots of close lighting, while all the forecasts said there was clear weather. Likewise with wind strength and direction being totally wrong.
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Old 10-05-2009, 20:12   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
It seems there are much greater risks in ones life to worry about than over which is safer, a cat or a monohull. Its sort of like debating which is more likely to kill you, lightning or getting kicked by a giraffe.
Spoken by a sailor who hasn't been struck by lightning yet.... Trust me, the odds aren't anywhere near getting kicked by a giraffe.

Richard, you must have been bored to tears when you started this thread. I see a couple of other veterans of the old Cruising Forum mono / multi wars posting here ... so I figured if Joli could chime in, abet politely, so could I.

Remember the old adage , once you get a Cat, there's no going back.
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Old 10-05-2009, 20:51   #26
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Quote:
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It seems there are much greater risks in ones life to worry about than over which is safer, a cat or a monohull. Its sort of like debating which is more likely to kill you, lightning or getting kicked by a giraffe.
I've always thought that when I hear people arguing which is better - Budweiser or Miller. As a diehard micro-brew fan, to me that's like arguing about whether you'd rather step in Black Lab poop or Golden Retriever poop.

There are more important things to spend your time considering.
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Old 10-05-2009, 20:51   #27
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[quote=Pblais;280762]
Sinking boats require one important item - "life rafts". Most folks would claim they are less of a problem than a boat sinking or upside down.

Consider a proper dinghy/raft on a mono with proper exit gear - effectively it's the second hull of the cat.
[unquote]

I agree they are less of a problem than a sinking boat, but no way are they less of a problem than an upside down one, assuming the upside down one has an inverted access hatch and an interior that has been designed for inverted survival.

I speak as someone who years ago capsized a 35' cat in the North Atlantic, pulled the cord on the liferaft inflator and nothing happened. We then pumped it up by hand and spent 11 miserable hours tethered to the upside down cat, which did not have access hatches, as the rules offered an option of having tools capable of cutting a hole to access the interior. We had these tools, but lost them overboard before they could be used.

It was far more comfortable on the awash tramp of the cat, but marginally warmer in the liferaft, plus my crew was in a state of shock and very seasick so it was easier to keep an eye on him in the liferaft.

Anyone who goes offshore t in a cat or tri that does not have an inverted entry hatch and/or who is relying on a liferaft is very poorly prepared. A dinghy in lieu of a liferaft is even worse.

regards,

Rob
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Old 10-05-2009, 21:31   #28
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Quote:
As a diehard micro-brew fan, to me that's like arguing about whether you'd rather step in Black Lab poop or Golden Retriever poop.
Should you step in Giraffe poop the odds of being kicked increase dramatically.
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Old 10-05-2009, 22:32   #29
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...to me that's like arguing about whether you'd rather step in Black Lab poop or Golden Retriever poop.
Ah, but according to some cat poop is the best to step in .

Mr Woods does not seem to want to overtly state his belief that all should pine to stick their foot in cat's poop though but rather asks questions hoping to lead us all stealthily to believing that we should be pining to do so. That, even though we all know that asking his views on which is best is much like asking a butcher whether we should be eating meat or not.

I would have thought that a professional designer contributing to an amateur forum would be most inclined to answer questions than pose them, by coming straight out and telling us which is the smelliest poop of all species, why that is and whether it is smelliest upside down or sunk. But there again, the naval architects I have worked with have tended to have broader minds and regard all poop as stinking badly somewhere or another and at least more than a bit smelly no matter what.

Putting all that in one sentence - In the end, those who claim any one of monos, cats or tris is the best choice for all, or for all sea areas, or for all tasks has an opinion not worth listening to.

Regarding "Sink or Swim??". Those with such worries best take a commercial flight as it is safer in all respects, with the added advantage of being faster, much more comfortable and considerably cheaper. Of course they could also move to a decked powerboat - although the drownings off decked sail boats of any configuration are miniscule compared to the numbers drowned from other causes, the drownings off decked power boats are even fewer despite the fact that like mono sail boats they all sink unless big enough to be compartmented or have engines so small they barely qualify.

In the end the one eyed ones of whatever orientation will cover their remaining eye and dismiss all the above. It is extraordinary the lengths they will go to in doing that and the worldly knowledge they have in even claiming to know, for example, better than all how many boats of whatever type are in my own marina, one even going to the lengths of counting them up on Google Earth - unfortunately not only getting the wrong marina but also the wrong part of the world .
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Old 10-05-2009, 23:13   #30
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The last two posts are priceless! Is this a great Forum, or what?!

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