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Old 24-10-2014, 04:57   #16
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Re: My latest invention, a free gift to multihull Owners

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Originally Posted by MBWhite View Post
I like your idea, very clever!

Thanks for posting.

Mark
I do as well, as far as the chain eating the threads, that is a very good point, but I believe could be overcome by polishing off the threads in the open area of the jaw, you only need the threads to engage the nut. Plus I would put great faith in the strength of this chain hook over some I have seen, I doubt the hook itself would fail.
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Old 24-10-2014, 05:23   #17
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Re: My latest invention, a free gift to multihull Owners

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I do as well, as far as the chain eating the threads, that is a very good point, but I believe could be overcome by polishing off the threads in the open area of the jaw, you only need the threads to engage the nut. Plus I would put great faith in the strength of this chain hook over some I have seen, I doubt the hook itself would fail.
In that case I think something should be welded to the end of the screw to prevent it from falling out when opened.
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Old 24-10-2014, 05:37   #18
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Re: My latest invention, a free gift to multihull Owners

Helia 44, your modified Clevis Grab Hook with Safety Pin is a great idea.

The Manta one looks like it would work well, but in fact its to big and gets hung up on everthing.

The Soft Shackles work well also.
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Old 24-10-2014, 06:03   #19
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Re: My latest invention, a free gift to multihull Owners

Ya'll are givin' me the cold feet willies talkin' about "bridal attachments"

I don't know if I have the commitment to stick with one method...

I think it's best to still have options depending on where I set my tackle...



PS: I'm a big fan of the soft shackle... Suits my needs for a variety of situations...
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Old 24-10-2014, 06:13   #20
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Re: My latest invention, a free gift to multihull Owners

Cotemar, would you post the link to that Talon hook? I can find chain hooks with clevis pins online, but none in SS.

We just bought a Mantus hook and I agree with you - it certainly does the job and is very rugged, but it is WAY too cumbersome and impractical in use. I want to like it, and it certainly has a cult following, but I don't think it will be staying with us much longer. Of all the attachment variations we have gone through, this is our least favorite one, although it is probably the most bullet-proof one.

I don't understand the comments regarding not being able to let out more chain when using Helia 44's design. You can't let out more chain with ANY chain grabber without removing it first.

The only way to let out more chain with a bridle without bringing it in first is to either have a very long bridle that you let out with the chain, or release the bridle and install another when the chain is out.

Monte, one should always have a chain snubber on so that if the bridle fails, the force is not put on the windlass. We have a center cleat that has a chain hook on a short piece of dyneema that we use for this. The shock load shouldn't be a problem in up to full storm conditions (when you would be making other arrangements).

Helia 44: thanks for posting your idea. It is a good one, and there are some expensive variations on it out there. I too would be concerned about bunging up the threads and think the idea of removing them below the nut is a good one.

Mark
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Old 24-10-2014, 06:27   #21
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Re: My latest invention, a free gift to multihull Owners

Well, interesting comments....
I built it with a 6mm stainless thumb screw. The chain does not connect the pin but just in case it did I planned on drilling out the nut and tapping 8 mm thread and going to 8mm stainless thumb screw.

It goes out the anchor roller nicely. It is a solid stainless chain hook good for 5 ton or more. I would not trust the little soft shackle that would fit the chain... My Helia loaded would be about 12.5 ton, and in severe weather it failing could be a disaster.

And the Mantus looks great but might be too bulky ?? I still like this ss chain hook with a keeper. As I said the keeper does not ride on the chain and only takes about 15 seconds to unwind enough to let out more chain. When I see better, in stainless, I will get it...

Kind regards, Helia 44


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Old 24-10-2014, 06:33   #22
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Re: My latest invention, a free gift to multihull Owners

Again, I really like your idea. The chain doesn't normally ride on the keeper, but I can tell you from experience using chain hooks with keepers, that the chain ends up in many conditions against the keeper with enough force to bend the keeper.

However, the keepers I have used were not 6mm, and I think a 8mm one would be extremely difficult to bend.

I still worry about bunging those threads, though. You might consider the idea someone posted about removing them below the nut.

Mark
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Old 24-10-2014, 07:18   #23
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Re: My latest invention, a free gift to multihull Owners

Thanks, Helia. I like your attitude.

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Old 24-10-2014, 08:27   #24
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Re: My latest invention, a free gift to multihull Owners

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would not trust the little soft shackle that would fit the chain... My Helia loaded would be about 12.5 ton, and in severe weather it failing could be a disaster.
A Soft Shackle would be much stronger than your 3/8 chain.

I made this Soft Shackle to bridal connector for a 240,000 lbs Nordhavn 72 that he has been using for two years now as a full time live aboard.

A Soft Shackle would handle a Helia 44 with no worries.
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Old 24-10-2014, 11:04   #25
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Re: My latest invention, a free gift to multihull Owners

Hmmmm. My Leopard 45 came with a chain hook that fits neatly over a link in the chain, and, to date (over ten years) has never fallen off accidentally, as long as I have a good catenary between the hook and the windlass. This, I think, is the key. If there is enough weight hanging down on it, from ahead and behind, it won't "drop" off. I often see bridles (or snubbers, on monohulls) where the chain is almost carrying the load, with hardly any catenary between the snubber and the windlass. This encourages the hook to drop off. Just be sure to have a good bit of chain hanging behind the chain hook. The two catenaries, one forward and one aft, have always done the trick for me, and mine is a crewed charter boat that spends a lot of time at anchor.

When I attach the bridle, I keep a little tension on the retrieval line while I quickly let out the first, say, ten or fifteen feet of chain between the hook and the windlass, because until it has that weight behind it, the chain can fall off. The corollary to that is, when I need to let out more chain, if I only winch in enough chain to eliminate the catenary, the hook usually will fall off, and I then can retrieve it and let out more chain and attach it again. Doing that, I usually avoid having to pull in the chain very much to let more out.

At rest, the chain is ALWAYS on a snubber and not loading up the windlass. I often use the snubber when breaking out the chain, too. My A200 Spade is a good bit larger than the anchors that most of the members of this forum use, and it can take a good tug upwards to break it out.

I can't imagine the hassle of tightening and loosening a keeper on the hook, when there is a much quicker, easier, and safer way.

Cheers,
Tim
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Old 24-10-2014, 13:52   #26
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Re: My latest invention, a free gift to multihull Owners

My simple solution is to hold the chain hook in place with an elastic band !

The band is made up of cycle tube. Only failures is if the hook drags on the seabed and wears. I keep plenty of spares but a life of many months is typical.

I would love to solve the problem of letting out more chain when on the bridle!
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Old 24-10-2014, 15:03   #27
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Re: My latest invention, a free gift to multihull Owners

Hello Cruising Friends..

Thank you for the spirited feedback...
One great thing to come of my invention, is a really good stimulating discussion... I love it!! I am almost healed up, and my first day back racking is tomorrow.. This has been really great. A few comments on some of the points..

Cotemar: That "Talon" looks like THE Cats Meow... If one was sitting around I would surely have bought it if it was reasonable.. My invention was because of necessity, like most inventions.. Thank you for the comments on the soft shackle, I must admit I have had no confidence in them and have never used one. My own inexperience with the soft shackle idea shows.
I must admit, I have never made or used a soft shackle, nor thought it would hold that well..

SVNeko: Thank you for the kind words... My "Attitude" of inventiveness and still continues to employ 50 people.. No reference to Business here, this is just purely my fun and escape, but it is true. You have always had a positive constructive attitude as well, nice to know you..

colemj:Great constructive comments on both occasions... We think a lot alike in the way you look at things.. It has been great to carry on this discussion and I think others (like myself) can learn a lot from this Thread.. You improved on my idea, and if I have a problem with the 6 mm, I will cut the thread off underneath, and wind out the thumb screw and replace it with 8mm one. Grinding off the threads to have only the very top bit threaded is also a great advantage in not having to thread it out very far before just sliding it out... If Cotemar's Talon was inexpensive, it looks like an improvement on my Invention... But to admit, this is not about money, I love to solve problems with inventiveness, adaptation, original thinking. I may just continue to evolve this one rather than buy something else like the Talon that might have its own problems, because this one was my invention and I will get joy out of using it.. The stainless hook is inexpensive, a friend of mine that owns the stainless shop did the mod for free because he loves the idea too, and this is all GREAT FUN!!

Mark, it is a great improvement as a64pilot said "polishing off the threads"... Those that made comments about how hard to undo to let chain out or in, with only threads at the top, this is probably down to about a ten second job to take off and ten seconds to put back on.. A very short unwind and then withdraw the smooth shaft.. OK with me.. Easy and fast to remove to let out more chain.. !!

One point to emphasis for Newbies, I think colemj Mark, and contrail Tim bring up an important point:
I leave my Bridal on with the chain just a little slack, so on a surge of wind the chain just starts to pull evenly as the bridal stretches. However, in heavy weather maybe over 25-30 knts, I have 18mm nylon and will put a "Third Leg" on the bridal to a cleat next to the windlass.. You do not want too much strain on the windlass, I set my chain just a little slack so on the bridal stretch the chain just begins to help take the load. But in heavy weather, you need that snubber to the cleat, a separate nylon line to take the load off the winch.

I must admit, with my Helia I have the materials and the cleat in place, but I have not rigged the third leg for storm conditions anchoring.. It is necessary over maybe 25-30 knots and is a good idea all the time in case the bridal were to fail and to take the load off the winch... I am just a new Helia Owner this year, and have not gotten around to it yet..

Thank you all for such a fun discussion and all the food for thought... Come on "Down Under" the beer is on me...

Helia 44
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Old 25-10-2014, 02:26   #28
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Re: My latest invention, a free gift to multihull Owners

Thanks D,K&M, I'll check out your chain hook next week. Internet is a bit slow here to open web pages...
Bob, yes our bridle is permanently rigged to pad eyes under the main beam, but I have seen a cat that just had there's looped over the foreword cleats. I guess with it that way you could slip the bridle off the cleat and add an additional 20m dock line each side to allow letting out chain without resetting the chain hook..
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Old 25-10-2014, 02:34   #29
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Re: My latest invention, a free gift to multihull Owners

Yes, that's how we do it. Bridle to the forward mooring cleats. We don't even use a loop, which can be hard to cast off under a lot of strain. Just have a long line that we cleat off.

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Old 25-10-2014, 15:19   #30
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Re: My latest invention, a free gift to multihull Owners

Hello Neko,

New to Cats, so maybe I do not understand your system...

For others benefit, how does that work on the mooring cleats without chafing the hull... I mean maybe you have cleats where I do not, and so do not understand.. If you mean the forward docking cleats it seems you would have to battle chafe on the gelcoat?

My bridle attaches to the massive main beam fittings underneath and between the hulls, so there is no possibility of chafe.. When I put a third bridle leg on, I will feed it out the anchor roller below and between the main hulls, and cleat to a mooring cleat alongside the winch in the anchor locker..

Kind regards, Helia
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