Manta now the best value for a 42' cat

[schoonerdog]

With the dollar now at an alltime low, seems like the Manta would be a good choice for people trying to get the most value for their money. I know that a new boat is going for $382,000 or around 269,000 euros base. It's a boat with well thought out storage, decent sailing, nice cabins, strong construction, quality finishes. I don't think european manufacturers could touch it for build quality at the same price.

[Intentional Drifter]

I completely agree. I would also add that the actual sailing of the boat is the definition of simplicity. They really thought through the rigging, sail plan, helm station, winch placement -- all of those things that can make a boat easy (or hard) for the skipper and crew. There are things I don't like about the boat, but that is mostly personal in nature. For someone looking for a boat in the 38 to 40 foot range (I say that because the Manta is really a 38 with transom extensions to improve performance), the Manta can't be beat. None of the S. African or French boats in that range, in my opinion, come close to giving the owner the same bang for the buck.

ID

[Frank Artville]

Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter

I completely agree. I would also add that the actual sailing of the boat is the definition of simplicity. They really thought through the rigging, sail plan, helm station, winch placement -- all of those things that can make a boat easy (or hard) for the skipper and crew. There are things I don't like about the boat, but that is mostly personal in nature. For someone looking for a boat in the 38 to 40 foot range (I say that because the Manta is really a 38 with transom extensions to improve performance), the Manta can't be beat. None of the S. African or French boats in that range, in my opinion, come close to giving the owner the same bang for the buck.

ID

Ok, but what about sailing it? I sailed the Manta, was not impressed, very comparable to a Lagoon 420 but with less interior space. It seemed they put too much stuff (weight) on what was originally a 38'. Also, it seems a bit outdated to have to go through a head to go to a forward cabin. Very eighties.
Apart from that, it is a great ICW cruiser that has a faithful following. An RV on the water.

[Intentional Drifter]

Frank -- I've sailed both the Manta (for a week) and the 420. The Manta is definitely a better sailing boat. Better to windward, easier to handle, and better average speeds.

The layout has some compromises -- you identified one. The build quality is no comparison with the Manta being far superior, both in terms of the basics (look at backing plates vs washers on the 420; quality of electrical components and installation; quality of fiberglass work; I could go on) and the selection and installation of the systems. Then, you have the characteristics of the company. Believe me (I've personally experienced it), Lagoon couldn't care less about what you think or your satisfaction with the product. One of the things I continue to hear from Manta owners is how well the company responds to them. That is one of those intangibles that count a lot to many.

ID

[fastcat435]

sailing the Manta or the Lagoon 420 is a difference between day and night.
the Manta is a good sailing cat in most conditions while the Lagoon 420 is more of a motor sailor in order to move with low wind conditions you have to start the generator and get moving , yes the Lagoon has more space in and outside and if that is what you want the lagoon is the cat if you would rather go sailing take the Manta any time

[Tropic Cat]

Manta is presented with a unique opportunity considering the value of the dollar in Europe.

Does anyone know if they are designing new boats or updating the design of the current one, to take advantage of current market conditions?

[chicagocat]

I agree with Rick, that Manta has a great opportunity right now and should try to come up with an all new model. The market is perfect for them right now.

On the other hand, I just can't see myself ever buying a boat with the diesels under the bunks. I spent a week smelling fuel on an Athena 38 once and I'll never do it again. It's an absolute deal killer for me. I know that a properly functioning engine shouldn't be too bad in that regard, but in the real world I just won't have an engine under my bed.

[Tropic Cat]

I've seen quite a few 'under bed' engine installations on larger monohulls, so I understand it's been a common design on sail boats for some time. As to catamarans, remember that keeping weight off the 'ends' is preferable. It really cuts down on hobby horsing and bridge deck slamming.

On my boat the diesels are accessed in forward cockpit lockers which might be great for performance and maintenance, but prevented two small aft cabins being incorporated there. (Like the Gemini 105)

All boats are a compromise, and none are perfect.

Getting back to Manta. There's lots of investment capital looking for opportunities and they really ought to take advantage of market conditions.

Then again, this may already be in the works... hence my question

[chicagocat]

Rick, I agree that all designs are compromises, and maybe I sounded too harsh on Manta. But that time I spent on an Athena really did stink.

On my PDQ 36 the engines are aft of the rear cabin, but not nearly as far back as they are on Lagoons, for instance. The boat is pretty good with regard to slamming and hobby-horsing, so I think they made a good design choice.

[ireaney]

Originally Posted by rickm505

Manta is presented with a unique opportunity considering the value of the dollar in Europe.

To a point I understand where you are coming from, but unless the Manta 42 (which I belive is just a lengthened 38 - please correct me if I am wrong as I know little about the Manta) and depending on the specification of a new boat ie electronics package, materials used for fabrics, extras etc etc, the cost based on $2.00 to the £1.00 which quoted at $382,000 = £191,000.00 plus import duties of 5% = sub total £200,000 then plus VAT (if to be kept in European waters by European owner) at 17.5% (UK tax) = total of £235,000.00 approx or $470,000.00.
This figure excludes any extras you may want which could add up to easily another £10,000.00 an dthen delivery from the States - don't know what the cost would be on that.
It then becomes more expensive than its French counterparts of a similar size or the new BB 415, which are designed as 42 footers and not just lengthened 38's.
So I think unless it was about $25,000-50,000 less initially (depending on spec) they might struggle, but who am I to say.
It will be interesting to see if they do try and go down that route.
Also remember UK and European buyers can easily view potential new boats from the manufacturers as they are much nearer.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by ireaney

= £191,000.00 plus import duties of 5% = sub total £200,000 then plus VAT (if to be kept in European waters by European owner) at 17.5% (UK tax) = total of £235,000.00 approx or $470,000.00.

I think you might be correct in that the 38' boat was first lengthened to 40' and then 42' and called the MKII.

My question also had to with new Manta models being introduced or contemplated. I don't mind the 'extended' stern so much when viewing the current model as I think they blended it into hull lines very well. However, I would mind very much if I had to traverse the Head on the way to the master stateroom.

The VAT you mentioned brings up another question. How is it that American boats are subject to this tax in Great Britian, yet British boats have no similar tax imposed when sold in America?

17.5% seems a bit excessive, don't you think?

I'd write my congressman on this matter, but he's a republican and might not have been released from prison as of yet (tongue firmly in cheek)

[ireaney]

Hi Rick, Although we pay 17.5% in the UK on everything except kids clothes, books and food, ours is not the most expensive I believe France is 18% and some European countries are as much as 21%.
In my business I import goods from China, our customs calculate as follows:
Cost of goods say $100,000.00
Duties (clothing) plus 12% = $112,000.00
Plus Container freight @ $8,000 = $120,000.00
Then VAT at 17.5% on the total = $21,000.00
Grand total = $141,000.00 = a 41% increase in the original cost!!!!!
With a boat if you sail it back yourself you won't pay VAT on the freight.
The VAT (Value Added Tax) is just another way the governments can sting us for more money by calling it something else.
If I bought a boat in the UK or Europe and was then sailing it to leave it in the Carribean or leave it in a country outside of the EU, so long as I did so within I think 90 days (might be wrong about the days) then I would not pay VAT.
If I bought a second hand boat from the USA or Caribe, I would still have to pay VAT on the buying price when I got bak to the UK but not duties I think as it is a used item.
Seems unfair that we pay it and you don't.

PS. I still have not been offered any free catamarans

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by ireaney

Seems unfair that we pay it and you don't.

PS. I still have not been offered any free catamarans

Part of the reason you don't have a free catamaran yet is because you are in line behind me, and I haven't gotten mine yet. I did ask first.

One of the problems in the US is that they have not taxed goods from the outside enough. Not nearly what most other countries charge for import taxes (no matter what they are called). It is a major contributer to the export of American manufacturing, among other things.

But I don't want this thread to become a political debate.

About the Manta;

It was one of the first ones I came across when I started researching 36-44 ft cats. I keep coming back to it too for some reason. It is less than a two hour drive from me and I have not been to the factory. I guess because I just don't have the money it would take to get what I want.

I have heard that it is only a 38' boat inside but very well done and with superior construction. That means a lot.

Does anyone know what they did with that 4'? Is it just full of air? Sealed?

[ireaney]

Hi Therapy, I don't want to change this thread at all, but just curious, as you have just told me I am now second in the queue for a free catamaran, when did you ask for your free catamaran?
You have probably seen my thread in classifieds for a free catamaran I posted about 4 days ago, I thought I was the first!

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by ireaney

about 4 days ago, I thought I was the first!

I did not start a thread because I don't think it is required by "the rules".
I am not sure exactly when I asked for one but it was a month or two when I asked Fastcat for one of his nice new ones to either keep or test for him in the US.