Maintenance - Cat VS Mono

[gosstyla]

They use to race multihulls extensively. After start cruising, first on a multi, they decided that monohulls was a better fit from their objectives. Yes, as far as I know, all the boats they have designed are multi.

[yona]

schoonerdog - Don't think we will go bigger than 40 feet. I lived so many years in China and HK so I got used to small places. We are living now in 800 sq. feet apartment, and I feel it is a little too big for us.

Dave, thanks a lot for the tip. I checked the web site of the Sanctuary cove boat show and it looks just like what we looked for. I hope the Aussies will give my wife a visa (she has Chinese passport). We probably need to book hotel room very early, any recommendation for something cheap?

[Jack Tar]

Wow the replies are all over the board. Cat's are a lot more work than you think.
1) They are very hard on sails. The Cat has more forces put on her sails due to hull configeration. I.E. it takes more force to lift the windward hull due to weight.Improved stability less heeling causes most to haul the sheets in to go faster. This reults in more strain on sail fabric.
2) The above results in higher rig loads
3) The above results in higher loads transfered into the hull. In addition one hull works against the other resulting in more stress loads.
4) Double engine and bildge maintenance / dual controls / extended electrial runs / double steering system / . Dont get me wrong Cat's are great boats. They are fast and have a lot of room. Why aren't there more ? (((MONEY))) and the urge to saty with a traditional design.

[Canibul]

"I.E. it takes more force to lift the windward hull due to weight." ??

now I'm confused. I thought a big part of what makes cats different is that the force that would rotate a monohull around its longitudinal axis is translated into forward lift in a catamaran?

Am I missing something here? I have been reading that in wind conditions when monohulls heel and spill air, cats use that force to accelerate. And without the tactile feedback of feeling the boat heel (and single rudder pressure) it takes care to realize how fast the forces on the cat increase, hence the "reef often and early" advice.

[Tropic Cat]

Deerfoot, Sundeer, and Beowulf are all cruising mono's and are the only boats the Dashews marketed.

[Tropic Cat]

Jack

Now I'm confused.

My windward hull doesn't lift. Period.

The manufacturer of my boat once posted a $25,000 ( actually 25,000 British pounds) reward to any Catalac boat owner documenting a raised windward hull. (Talbot, you can chime in here at any time) The reward was never paid. Hobiecats lift hulls, cruising cats do not. What exactly do you mean that one of my hulls works against the other?

It's true that Catamaran rigs never unload because we don't heel. But ... because a Catamaran sailor will 'reef early and often', this reduces the load on the rig. Once reduced we have no more force on sails than a heeled mono. Probably less. My sails are 21 years old and although a little on the baggy side I certainly wouldn't say that because I own a cat I go through lots of sails which your post implied.

Where is your information coming from? Which catamaran do you own, and why is it you can fly a hull and wear out your sails?

Catamarans cost more money than a mono, this is certainly true, and the only part of your post I seem to agree with.

Rick in Florida

[Tropic Cat]

Canibul,

It really does depend on the hull shape. What you wrote applies to Catamarans with Keels. Cats with dagger boards can be dangerous in the same conditions.

Rick in Florida

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Jack Tar

Wow the replies are all over the board. Cat's are a lot more work than you think.
1) They are very hard on sails. The Cat has more forces put on her sails due to hull configeration. I.E. it takes more force to lift the windward hull due to weight.Improved stability less heeling causes most to haul the sheets in to go faster. This reults in more strain on sail fabric.
2) The above results in higher rig loads
3) The above results in higher loads transfered into the hull. In addition one hull works against the other resulting in more stress loads.
4) Double engine and bildge maintenance / dual controls / extended electrial runs / double steering system / . Dont get me wrong Cat's are great boats. They are fast and have a lot of room. Why aren't there more ? (((MONEY))) and the urge to saty with a traditional design.

Hi Jack Tar,

If I recognize your name from other boards, you are the new owner of a nice Formosa 51 - congrats!. I certainly don't want to turn this into a mono/cat debate, but I felt you might have some misperceptions from your comments above.

"Cat's are a lot more work than you think". I agree! In fact, I find all boats much more work than I think.

They are very hard on sails...". I don't understand your point here. Setting sails on a cat doesn't differ much from that on a mono. One does not sheet in to go faster. Maybe you meant to refer to the fact that as a cat goes faster, the apparent wind moves forward? This is true for any boat. I don't think there is any extra "strain" on the fabric, as the boat accelerates in gusts, thus relieving the pressure. If you are refering to replacement sail costs, then that is difficult to make generalizations on due to the wide range of quality, configurations and systems available for all boats regardless of type. There is one aspect of many cats that IS harder on sails: many cats don't have a backstay and rely on main shrouds mounted aft of the beam. When running down wind, the sail on a cat is often resting against these shrouds. Having suitable chafe patches installed in the spots where the sail meets the shroud is a good thing.

Higher rig loads and their transfer to the hulls are a given with multis. However, the scantlings and rigging are sized appropriately. I promise you that my "oversized" rigging and scantlings costs less than your keel!

Designing for the higher stress loads of multiple hulls and their connections is definitely a factor in multis, but I don't understand how this translates into higher maintanence costs. I will give you the extra cost of resin/glass/etc, but these costs are no more than a mono of equivalent size (not LOA).

Your last point has truthful facts mixed with some assumptions. Two assumptions are that all cats have two engines and steering stations. This isn't necessarily true - particularly the double steering stations, which most cats don't have. I don't think the extra throttle/shift cables really add much to the either the overall cost or the cost of maintanence. You are spot on that cats with two engines cost more to maintain. Exactly double that for a boat with a single engine. This is also true for any aspect of any boat that has two of something (heads, AC units, pumps, etc). I really don't know what you meant by bilge maintanence. My bilges ask so little of me and in the 3+ years I have owned my cat, I don't think I have spent a penny on them. Don't tell them about the engines, though, or they might get jealous and demand more bilge jewlery. Your point about greater electrical runs is valid, but again, I haven't spent much money maintaining these. Some of the equipment I have added did take a bit more wire to install, but because the batteries on my boat are in the bridgedeck, the main wiring runs to the panel, inverter and windlass are significantly shorter than in most monos. Since this is predominantly 2/0 and 4/0 wiring, I think I saved money with the cat!

Now I have to disagree completely with your last statement regarding the fact that money is the reason there aren't more cats. I think your location is in California, where cats don't yet have a large presence. But I assure you that they are growing like weeds on the east coast, dominate the charter boats in the caribbean - which is translating to private ownership as they come out of charter, and have a huge presence in the Med and Europe. But that just speaks to the presence of catamarans. As to the costs, I think multis used to cost more, but it is now a "common knowledge" issue that becomes true only because everyone repeats it. I actually now think the opposite. After attending the Annapolis show last year and the Newport one this year, I can say that most new monos intended for the same type of sailing cost more than cats. As an example, the Pacific Seacraft 37 costs more than the Manta 42. The Island Packet 44 more than the Lagoon. And this is comparing similar LOA. If you compare equivalent size boats, the monos look even worse. For sure, there is an entire market for monos like Hunter and Catalina that are less expensive. But these markets do not have many multi equivalents, and even here, multis like Gemini and Dragonfly hold their own on price.

I will agree that prices are definitely skewed higher for cats on the used market.

Mark

[cat man do]

Hi guys ,just a short reply for "YONA" re acomidation for sanctuary cove boat show.
Mate you can,t drive there due to parking restrictions,but you can catch electric train and bus like most will. Exellent service which means you can stay just about any where near train line. Depending on how long your staying the Gold Coast/Surfers Paradise area always has good deals for a week,a lot of cheaper end accom available here.....Brisbane city is where the plane will land, but suspest all your inner city accom. will be more costly, but you wont have the 100k trip to Surfers, and you'll probably be able to walk to train station. Good services to outer suburbs where cheaper accom would be. Sorry,can't recomend an establishment as such, but hope this helps.

Dave

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by colemj

Hi Jack Tar,

... You are spot on that cats with two engines cost more to maintain. Exactly double that for a boat with a single engine. This is also true for any aspect of any boat that has two of something (heads, AC units, pumps, etc). ..

Mark

If the Twin-Engined Catamaran we are comparing to a particular Single-Engined Monohull motors faster than that monohull - then the cost of engine maintenance may be something less than double, over a given distance.
Although I use operating hours (intervals) to determine the timing of maintenance, I use distance traveled to calculate the rational cost values.
Hence, issues such as “miles per gallon”, are more informative than is “gallons per hour”.

[Jack Tar]

No Canibul you are right. The force pushing a mono over is translated to forward force on a cat because they have more weight further out to windward. "Beam" That forward speed is directly rrelated to the force on the rig. I.E. a cats rig will see more stress than a mono . There is no such thing as a cat not heeling. They may only heel slightly but they heel. Just look at your waterlines.

[Canibul]

Well, it makes sense from a physics view. the only thing generating energy here is wind. If its generating enough lateral force in pounds per sq. ft. on the sail to roll (heel) a monohull over, its generating the same ( aprox) amount of lateral force on a catamaran sail trimmed the same, but the catamaran cannot heel over to the same extent, or even close. So that force has to go somewhere. Unless the boat slips sideways, or the chain plates pop loose, the only other way it can go is to be revectored as "lift" or "push" which is mechanically coupled to the multihull. Hence, it HAS to move or break.

So ideally a multihull would have a shorter, stiffer rig?

[Tropic Cat]

Can you guys keep this conversation in one thread?

Rick in Florida

[Canibul]

Sure. Cats gotta have stiffer and stronger rigs. Therefore the cost for hardware will be higher than for equivalent monohulls. If the cost for hardware is higher, then it increases the maintenance costs for multihulls.

There. you see. Was apropos all along...sort of...if you squint your eyes just right and have some more rum....

[cat man do]

Gee, if the hardware needs to be stronger and is more expensive on a multi maybe a light eficient powercat may be the go.[for some] tongue in cheek and not trying to hi-jack the thread

Dave