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Old 02-08-2010, 08:31   #16
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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Does that boat have a heavy-weather steering station which is NOT completely exposed and in front of the cabin? I'd guess that one of the factors which contributed to their capsize was that the autopilot was steering because they couldn't stay out at that wheel.
Yes they do...in-cabin helm station
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Old 02-08-2010, 13:36   #17
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Lovely boat. Shame it flipped.

It would be great if all these catamaran capsize incidents could be bought together on one thread so information on why/how etc could be easily accessible for all to learn from. Maybe a table of some kind?

cheers.

Yeah, but then that 'table' would blow the fallacy that 'catamarans are safer because they don't sink' They cost twice as much but they don't sink. So if you buy a monohull AND a decent quality Liferaft you won't sink either and you'll have plenty of money left with which to stock said liferaft with luxuries

I thought about buying a catamaran then all of a sudden they started flipping over all over the oceans and I figured out the above^
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Old 02-08-2010, 13:57   #18
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Yeah, but then that 'table' would blow the fallacy that 'catamarans are safer because they don't sink' They cost twice as much but they don't sink. So if you buy a monohull AND a decent quality Liferaft you won't sink either and you'll have plenty of money left with which to stock said liferaft with luxuries

I thought about buying a catamaran then all of a sudden they started flipping over all over the oceans and I figured out the above^
I'm sure that the two sailors on "Anna" were saying to themselves, as they stayed secure in their upside down 57' catamaran, "Damn! We could have saved a lot of money and we could have been out in that storm in a liferaft."
Or maybe not.
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Old 02-08-2010, 13:58   #19
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Yeah, but then that 'table' would blow the fallacy that 'catamarans are safer because they don't sink' They cost twice as much but they don't sink. So if you buy a monohull AND a decent quality Liferaft you won't sink either and you'll have plenty of money left with which to stock said liferaft with luxuries

I thought about buying a catamaran then all of a sudden they started flipping over all over the oceans and I figured out the above^
Ocean voyaging in small boats is not safe. Anyone who tells you anything else is trying to sell you something. If you're not okay with putting your crew and your boat in peril stay close to home.

That said long distance cruising can be made safer by learning from the experience of others. I'm very much looking forward to hearing the details of this case.

Tom
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Old 02-08-2010, 14:36   #20
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what do you consider a small boat????

30 foot,,,,,,maybe 50 foot,,,,,,120 foot????

when you are out in the middle of the ocean ALL boats seem small

what size is safe to you????

bigger than the TITANIC????
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Old 02-08-2010, 15:33   #21
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[QUOTE=CastOff;495805]Yeah, but then that 'table' would blow the fallacy that 'catamarans are safer because they don't sink' They cost twice as much but they don't sink. So if you buy a monohull AND a decent quality Liferaft you won't sink either and you'll have plenty of money left with which to stock said liferaft with luxuries

The fact that monohulls are cheaper is another fallacy..If you compare 40 ft mono to 40 ft cata, yes, but (unfortunately) 40 ft cata is only comparable to 48-50 ft mono in terms of comfort and space. And yet, they do heel and are still sloooower..

cheers

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Old 02-08-2010, 15:47   #22
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what do you consider a small boat????

30 foot,,,,,,maybe 50 foot,,,,,,120 foot????

when you are out in the middle of the ocean ALL boats seem small

what size is safe to you????

bigger than the TITANIC????
Well, of course, boats and ships of all sizes can be lost. This one made the news recently: CBC News - Nova Scotia - Students safe after capsizing of N.S.-based ship.

I sail a 42' cat. I've made the passage between NZ and the tropics a half dozen times on it. No doubt it is a very, very small boat at times. It is hard for me to suggest an exact dividing point between small and large vessels because there are such variations in design. However, my feeling is that all else being equal the general area is around 100 tons. To me virtually all yachts are small boats. Offshore casualty samples are small and there is no central record keeping that I am aware of. So, quantifying risk and correlating it to size or type is hard. But it is obvious that the size of the sea is fixed. Boats of all sizes need to deal with the same conditions. This fact makes it harder to design, build and operate small boats as safely as large ones. Again, I can't put a number on the risk but I can say that every year I hear of losses of small boats at sea. People die. People I knew have died. In my very non-random and incomplete survey voyaging even in season and with care is more dangerous than driving. I suspect it is far more dangerous. Again, voyaging in small boats entails risk. Hard though it is to quantify it is there and it is significant.

Tom
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Old 02-08-2010, 16:04   #23
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The boat do have a real pilot house with steering inside too.
Can you access all the sheets and winches for a fast dump of sail power while inside?
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Old 02-08-2010, 16:04   #24
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How big is big enough?

I remember reading an article about yacht survivability in bad weather and the Coast Guard seems to think the first threshold of safety is around 30 feet. Many more boats under 30 feet have been lost than over 30 feet.

Of course, that might be because there are so many more small boats out there, but they seemed to think it had statistical validity.

Yep, my 27 seems awfully small some days.
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Old 02-08-2010, 16:04   #25
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I thought about buying a catamaran then all of a sudden they started flipping over all over the oceans and I figured out the above^
FFS. Name 5 this year. FFS.
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Old 02-08-2010, 16:15   #26
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Can you access all the sheets and winches for a fast dump of sail power while inside?
That's a very good question catmando...Looking at just the pictures I don't see that capability ( on this one)......a very good point indeed.

I would think it possible to obtain...but a compromise in the design/ascetics somewhere Im sure.

There appears to be lines lead aft so maybe there is from aft cabin if not inside which would certainly help in a big blow.

Not all pilot houses on monos have that ability either though.
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Old 02-08-2010, 16:35   #27
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It is a good question and it goes further then that. What if you are making a jump with just you and your wife (or as in this instance the owner and his buddy). Someone will be off watch and someone has to tend to the boat (sailing, navigating, keeping watch, trying to stay awake...) with the auto driving. It is pretty easy to get comfy in a position and become unaware that the breeze has built or if it's night a big puff can come through un seen.

Last years Mill Race saw the wind go from the low 20's to 70 with no warning, then back to nothing, then back to the original 20. No rain, no lightning no nothing. Just bang, big breeze. One or two F's ended up upside down, every mono took a spreader in the water knockdown.

These things happen and my fear is that as cruising cats add sail for light air performance we'll see more of this especially with new less experienced sailors buying them.

Makes you read this in a new light?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillraining View Post
That's a very good question catmando...Looking at just the pictures I don't see that capability......a very good point indeed.

I would think it possible to obtain...but a compromise in the design/ascetics somewhere Im sure.
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Old 02-08-2010, 16:46   #28
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Can you access all the sheets and winches for a fast dump of sail power while inside?
On the 42 at least you are just a step away from all the winches and the mast when inside. An alert crew should be able to release all the sheets and halyards in a few seconds. A really motivated crew might be able to find a way to hand hold the sheets from inside though I can't imagine the conditions in which I'd have sail up and be willing to be below where that would be a requirement... I have spent a good deal of time in the cockpit of an A42 and it is probably a lot more protected than you seem to believe it to be.

Tom
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Old 02-08-2010, 17:15   #29
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I used to sail a 48ft Paul Lindenberg, plywood cat in the daysailing tourist business. It had Ackerman principle tillers, connected by a tube across 18ft beam.
The mainsheet was not cleated to a horn cleat, but led thru a block to a pedestal mounted jamb-cleat. The jammer had one fixed jaw, and one pivoting jaw operated by a 12volt solenoid, which itself was powered up by a pendulum operated micro switch. The helmsman could manually snatch the sheet from the jammer, but the electro set-up also worked well. Once a week, me and the boys would fly a hull and test it. It was always interesting.
This BTW, was back in the early 70's, so what we are discussing here, is nothing new to the game.
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Old 02-08-2010, 17:16   #30
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I plan to be at the Alwoplast yard with Chris White later this week. They will likely have the best information. What questions would you like me to ask?
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