Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

[minaret]

Originally Posted by smj

My guess is if the boat manufacturers passed out all their drawings and specs to anyone there would be some home builders building that design. Maybe different if someone was willing to pay the boat builder a healthy amount for all their specs.
When I build a spec house it takes me about a month to design and draw the prints. After that I have to take the prints to an engineer and have him run the numbers and make notes describing how he wants certain parts of the house built to meet the windstorm codes. At this point I have a lot of time and quite a bit of money into a set of prints that can be used to build a house. Do you think I would give a set of these prints to anyone half way interested in the house? No way!
The difference between the house and a boat is while building the house, the engineer makes periodic visits checking on the build. After the house is built he signs of on the construction and takes full responsibility for the structure. I'm not sure if any boat builders do this, but if they did it may give the buyer a more confident feeling when purchasing.


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How can you build a boat based on a laminate schedule? It's not a lines drawing or table of offsets. The equivalent in house building would be a simple table stating the walls are stick framed 2x4 on a given center, what sort of foundation, and what sort of finish. Nobody is asking for drawings here, it's not required to know the scantlings.

[smj]

Originally Posted by minaret

How can you build a boat based on a laminate schedule? It's not a lines drawing or table of offsets.

To be able to understand the Shuttleworth laminate schedule I posted, my guess is you would need the full builders drawings for the boat and the help of a naval or structural engineer to run the numbers to see whether the boat as described would be strong enough. So basically just the laminate schedule is worthless unless you have the other pieces to the puzzle. Once given the other pieces to the puzzle you now have all the information to be able to build the boat.


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[minaret]

Originally Posted by smj

To be able to understand the Shuttleworth laminate schedule I posted, my guess is you would need the full builders drawings for the boat and the help of a naval or structural engineer to run the numbers to see whether the boat as described would be strong enough. So basically just the laminate schedule is worthless unless you have the other pieces to the puzzle. Once given the other pieces to the puzzle you now have all the information to be able to build the boat.


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Really? Because I looked over it, and found it both incredibly simple and incredibly flexible. More of a loose template for the home builder.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by minaret

Really? Because I looked over it, and found it both incredibly simple and incredibly flexible. More of a loose template for the home builder.

Like I said
I know zip about laminate schedules.... but I know men who do........

[smj]

Originally Posted by minaret

Really? Because I looked over it, and found it both incredibly simple and incredibly flexible. More of a loose template for the home builder.

Yet you dont know the placement of the bulkheads, what the radius of the beams are and how they are attached as well as the shape of the hulls. Sorry but your statement is very hard for me to believe.


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[smj]

Originally Posted by weavis

Like I said

I know zip about laminate schedules.... but I know men who do........

My point is, without the prints or hull drawings the laminate schedules are useless.


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[a64pilot]

People have been stealing boat hull designs for years, a successful design emerges just buy one and pop a mold off of it, so common they were called "pop" boats.

Has nothing to do with laminate schedules, build quality or anything else

[smj]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

People have been stealing boat hull designs for years, a successful design emerges just buy one and pop a mold off of it, so common they were called "pop" boats.

Has nothing to do with laminate schedules, build quality or anything else

Sure it does. Without the lamination schedule the "pop" boats have to figure their own lamination schedule, could be better quality could be worse.


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[Cotemar]

Let’s not let this important Boat Hull laminate schedules and thickness discussion end.

Just go here to continue in the fun.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1638357

[weavis]

Hey people
This thread is back.
Had a snafu in the back office......... carry on as you were.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by smj

Sure it does. Without the lamination schedule the "pop" boats have to figure their own lamination schedule, could be better quality could be worse.


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Richard Woods recently advertised a couple of catamaran molds for sale from good production boat companys. I was tempted....... but dont want to get into a boat building business. It would be nice to make my own though......

[minaret]

Originally Posted by weavis

Richard Woods recently advertised a couple of catamaran molds for sale from good production boat companys. I was tempted....... but dont want to get into a boat building business. It would be nice to make my own though......

At least you'd know exactly what went into it.

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by minaret

At least you'd know exactly what went into it.

+1

And if one own moulds it can make building the boat a real bargain with well chosen small yard...

Cheers,

Tomasz

[minaret]

Went over the posted partial layout for the Shuttle 31. Hard to decipher as it's laid out, as they don't give a single actual product weight, only weights for finished panels after fairing and paint. And it contains zero information as to actual hull construction, that is all for interior construction, transom, bulkheads, etc. But the weights are insanely low, even for a very small cat like that. Most panels appear to have no more than 1/16 of glass on either side, ie a single biax. It mentions the actual laminate schedule in the index on the first page, but that was not posted. This holds very little similarity to a production laminate schedule, it is just part of the instructions for the home builder. I'll throw in a few quotes from it to illuminate how flexible this build is. It will vary dramatically from one home builder to the next.


ADD 25% TO GLASS REQUIREMENT FOR CONNECTIONS+EXTRA GLASS


When you have found the local equivalent materials that are available Calculate the areas required using this list and the laminate specification.



PANEL D Structural Bulkheads (except in way of cross beams)
Standard Boat
1 x 800 Biax @ 45 degrees
12mm Airex
1 x 800 Biax @ 45 degrees
Weight kgs/m2 5.2
Connection 5



TOPS IDES OF HULLS
As specified on the construction drawing.



This is the only hint as to hull construction here, and it is revealing:





BUILDING IN STRIP PLANKED CEDAR OR DURACORE.
To build the hulls in Strip planked cedar you will have to replace the basic hull which is: 800 Biax at + - 450 15 Airex R63-80 or (Divinycel H30) 800 Biax at + - 450
With:
600 Biax at + - 450 15mm (Finished planed thickness) Cedar 600 Biax at + - 450
OR Strip plank with Baltec Duracore (Balsa with 1 mm Cedar each side) 700 Biax at + - 450 15mm Baltek Duracore 700 Biax at + - 450




So the standard hull is 800 grams per sq meter of biax on either side of 15mm Airex core. Since they don't give any actual product numbers, you are left to figure out how to achieve that on your own. Since the stated weights are for finished panels, including fairing and paint, one certainly can't call that a laminate schedule. But doing the math, 800G= 28.2 oz. A single 3608 of the type mentioned on the IP layup earlier is 1200 G/SqM. So this layup would probably be a single 1708 (@ 600 G/SqM) with fairing and paint. Final thickness of a single 1708 without the fairing or paint=.043".



http://www.fiberglassindustries.com/FabricWeight.htm

[smj]

Originally Posted by minaret

Went over the posted partial layout for the Shuttle 31. Hard to decipher as it's laid out, as they don't give a single actual product weight, only weights for finished panels after fairing and paint. And it contains zero information as to actual hull construction, that is all for interior construction, transom, bulkheads, etc. But the weights are insanely low, even for a very small cat like that. Most panels appear to have no more than 1/16 of glass on either side, ie a single biax. It mentions the actual laminate schedule in the index on the first page, but that was not posted. This holds very little similarity to a production laminate schedule, it is just part of the instructions for the home builder. I'll throw in a few quotes from it to illuminate how flexible this build is. It will vary dramatically from one home builder to the next.


ADD 25% TO GLASS REQUIREMENT FOR CONNECTIONS+EXTRA GLASS


When you have found the local equivalent materials that are available Calculate the areas required using this list and the laminate specification.



PANEL D Structural Bulkheads (except in way of cross beams)
Standard Boat
1 x 800 Biax @ 45 degrees
12mm Airex
1 x 800 Biax @ 45 degrees
Weight kgs/m2 5.2
Connection 5



TOPS IDES OF HULLS
As specified on the construction drawing.



This is the only hint as to hull construction here, and it is revealing:





BUILDING IN STRIP PLANKED CEDAR OR DURACORE.
To build the hulls in Strip planked cedar you will have to replace the basic hull which is: 800 Biax at + - 450 15 Airex R63-80 or (Divinycel H30) 800 Biax at + - 450
With:
600 Biax at + - 450 15mm (Finished planed thickness) Cedar 600 Biax at + - 450
OR Strip plank with Baltec Duracore (Balsa with 1 mm Cedar each side) 700 Biax at + - 450 15mm Baltek Duracore 700 Biax at + - 450




So the standard hull is 800 grams per sq meter of biax on either side of 15mm Airex core. Since they don't give any actual product numbers, you are left to figure out how to achieve that on your own. Since the stated weights are for finished panels, including fairing and paint, one certainly can't call that a laminate schedule. But doing the math, 800G= 28.2 oz a single 3608 of the type mentioned on the IP layup earlier is 1200 G/SqM. So this layup would probably be a single 1708 (@ 600 G/SqM) with fairing and paint.

Maybe Shuttleworth doesn't want to give all the information until you pay for the plans. Sounds more than reasonable to me.