Jaguar 36 - Coming Back ?

[TaoJones]

Originally Posted by SurfNRG

<snip>And keep in mind, Bumfuzzle did make it safely around the world although he had the delam issue.
<snip>

It's probably worth mentioning, Kevin, that while Bumfuzzle's delam issue didn't prevent Pat and Ali from completing their circumnavigation, it did require several months in the Menzies yard in New Zealand while the repairs were effected (for a staggering cost of about $35,000 IIRC), before the Schultes could continue their voyage.

TaoJones

[SurfNRG]

And it should also be questioned if they had the wool pulled over their eyes at this NZ boat yard regarding the extent of the repair (overkill by doing the entire hulls?) and how the repair was done (materials used and procedure)? And also should be noted, that the boat was sailed after the delam issue was first detected (in Panama) and sailed across the ocean to New Zealand where the repair was done. It was certainly a bad experience either way. I'm still puzzled as to how a top notch surveyor could have missed such multiple areas of sizable delaminated areas - or did something fishy happen in Panama (third world shinanigan, ie, flashing a torch past the hull area to entice the delam?). I can't believe that the surveyor could have missed such multiple defects. But like others have reported, either way, if this is the case, there are bound to be some lemons in a batch of ANY type of boat. Best thing is to survey ANY boat prior to purchase period end.

[TaoJones]

Originally Posted by SurfNRG

And it should also be questioned if they had the wool pulled over their eyes at this NZ boat yard regarding the extent of the repair (overkill by doing the entire hulls?) and how the repair was done (materials used and procedure)? And also should be noted, that the boat was sailed after the delam issue was first detected (in Panama) and sailed across the ocean to New Zealand where the repair was done. It was certainly a bad experience either way. I'm still puzzled as to how a top notch surveyor could have missed such multiple areas of sizable delaminated areas - or did something fishy happen in Panama (third world shinanigan, ie, flashing a torch past the hull area to entice the delam?). I can't believe that the surveyor could have missed such multiple defects. But like others have reported, either way, if this is the case, there are bound to be some lemons in a batch of ANY type of boat. Best thing is to survey ANY boat prior to purchase period end.

Perhaps, but I think about half the expense was due to having the hulls Awlgripped after the fiberglass repairs were completed. It's worth noting, as well, that the 'glass gods in the Menzies yard did a great job fairing the hulls, thereby rectifying some obvious sloppy work in the original factory layup.

As far as the choice of materials that the Menzies yard used: Yes, I know that the Charter Cats principals questioned that and actually claimed that it would result in catastrophic failure, somewhere down the road. I can only say that the (excellent) surveyor I used in early May '07 also did a thorough examination and tapping of Bumfuzzle's hulls for me because I was most concerned about that. He found only a few small areas of potential delamination, and most were adjacent to thru-hulls, and this was 2+ years after the repairs were made, and thousands of sea-miles after NZ.

Over time, I, too, have pretty much concluded that it's most likely that Bumfuzzle's hull damage and shoddy repairs probably happened when the vessel was on the hard in Panama. The amazing thing is that it didn't cause them to lose the vessel somewhere in their Pacific crossing long before they ever made it to NZ.

My only doubt about the Panama scenario is based on the fact that they had constant water intrusion in the port hull virtually from the time they left Florida and all the way through the period they spent in the Bahamas. If you'll recall, they took a leisurely six months cruising through the Bahamas as they were getting themselves up to speed on the sailing aspects of their adventure, and it wasn't until the repairs were effected in NZ that that (the port hull water intrusion) finally stopped.

Whatever the truth is, the Schultes are now embarked on a land-based "cruise," and their last update had them in Nicaragua. If I were them, I think I'd go back to the place in Panama that hauled Bum when they get down there, and just ask around about what might have happened there. You never know, someone might just 'fess up.

I doubt they'll do that, though. I think they're over the whole sailing thing.

TaoJones

[Fishman]

Where in Panama did they haul Bumfuzzle? Both Shelterbay and Flamenco which have travel lifts are pretty much first world facilities, definitely not '3rd world'. Balboa has an older railway system which is usually very easy on ones hull (usually no lifting involved). I am not sure why Panama is being referred to as this dodgy place to get hauled, its not like that at all. Apart from areas in Colon its as first world as it comes, Panama is definitely my choice for a haul in central America, I've been hauled in Shelter Bay and will be hauled again at Flamenco...good facilities, above average services, no tax for yachts in transit, lots of knowledgeable guys eager to help, unlike Costa Rica and other countries.

[TaoJones]

Originally Posted by Fishman

Where in Panama did they haul Bumfuzzle? Both Shelterbay and Flamenco which have travel lifts are pretty much first world facilities, definitely not '3rd world'. Balboa has an older railway system which is usually very easy on ones hull (usually no lifting involved). I am not sure why Panama is being referred to as this dodgy place to get hauled, its not like that at all. Apart from areas in Colon its as first world as it comes, Panama is definitely my choice for a haul in central America, I've been hauled in Shelter Bay and will be hauled again at Flamenco...good facilities, above average services, no tax for yachts in transit, lots of knowledgeable guys eager to help, unlike Costa Rica and other countries.

I would have to go back through their logs to get the name for you, Fishman, and don't have the time at the moment. I agree with you that the facilities in Panama City are first-rate, but accidents can happen anywhere. And, people being people, some would prefer to cover up their mistakes than take responsibility.

None of us knows that anything untoward happened when their vessel was hauled in Panama, of course, but between the time Charles Kanter surveyed Bumfuzzle in Lauderdale for the Schultes, and the time they pulled into the Menzies yard in NZ, Panama was the only place she had been pulled from the water.

Pat and Ali were away from their vessel for a few days, at the time, and when they returned, Bum was filthy with dirt and grease. The facility in Panama had placed the vessel somewhere near a source of the filth, and they wouldn't even take responsibility for that, so who knows what else might have happened?

When I have the time, I'll look through their logs to see if they included the name of the facility and post it here.

TaoJones

[Fishman]

'My only doubt about the Panama scenario is based on the fact that they had constant water intrusion in the port hull virtually from the time they left Florida and all the way through the period they spent in the Bahamas.'

This is a clear indicator to me that the problem was always there and that the surveyor missed it during survey. Everyone makes mistakes. From what I remember, Bum was only 2/3 years old at the time of survey...maybe the surveyor was a bit quick. The Panama yard damage theory I find HIGHLY unlikely.

[Fishman]

The first part of Bum journey was the notoriously shallow Bahamas. I also recall a grounding there by Bum...and a kedge off...the triangulation of forces caused by a kedge off can be severe...anyway...I think that IF (and that's a big IF), Bum was fine and the survey was correct, then a far more likely cause of the Wildcat's problems were the crew's inexperience in a shallow area. Regardless of how dodgy Chartercats were as a company, I would have seriously questioned the crew's ability and how it may have caused the problems, ESPECIALLY as the boat received a clean survey prior to departure. Would you honor a guarantee if the boat received a clean survey and was then cruised through the Bahamas, grounded, and then on to Panama, by a TOTALLY NOVICE crew??? Hallo. Most yachties that I know, (who buy used boats) dont go running back to the manufacturer for so-called defects - they rather educate themselves on how to fix it cheaply and get on with cruising. Wildcats were WAY cheaper than any other boat in its class...its only logical that they would have a very limited ability to honor gaurantees (especially in a foreign country with a weak rand). Personally when buying a USED boat I would not care about the manufacturer's guarantee...rather make sure you get a good survey to make sure that the particular boat you are buying is sound. After that, as many yachties know, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. Bum's crew were treating their yachts problem like it was an appliance bought at Home Depot , once again a manifestation of their inexperience in the yachting world. And the amount it cost them to fix it in the end was WAY over the top. Once again showing their lack of hands on monitoring of the repair. A true yachtsman will stand over his repair and make sure its done without wasting $$, Bum's crew seem to have just 'handed over the keys' and walked off. Pat should have bought a grinder, cloth and resin in Panama, ripped out the crap, and fixed it himself...he would have learned something about what real yachting is about. Being self-sufficient so that you can cruise off the grid without going crying to your mother all the time. And to cause all Wildcats to get a bad reputation is just irresponsible to say the least. By the sound of it the company was going down anyway, so all Pat has achieved is to make it hard for other Wildcat owners (with great boats) to sell them for fair value. If I owned a Wildcat I would be PISSED OFF with him. If you are totally novice sailor, AND you are useless at fixing things, AND you are going treat it like a Home Depot appliance, then you must buy a top quality NEW boat (preferably built in your country of origin with agents all over the globe), NOT a used Wildcat which will always require a more hands on kind of sailor who has made an educated choice about what he can afford, and what his abilities are (and does not care what the uneducated masses think about Wildcats). Pat and Ally rushed into the purchase without educating themselves about cats. No, in my opinion the whole Bumfuzzle story stinks, its a bad joke. The only positive for someone in the market for a spacious 35 footer (and the beam for a 42 footer!) is that there are some really well priced used Wildcats around! A used Wildcat in good nick is the best boat for the $$ by far. And no, I have nothing to do with the company and I don't own one. I am from South Africa and I don't even own a SA built cat...I just feel that off the grid cruisers adhere to a certain ethic...Pat thought that he could just do a sailing course, buy a boat and sail around the world...which he did...but someone he missed the whole point and caused all sorts of bad karma...I think I will shut up now.

[TaoJones]

Originally Posted by Fishman

'My only doubt about the Panama scenario is based on the fact that they had constant water intrusion in the port hull virtually from the time they left Florida and all the way through the period they spent in the Bahamas.'

This is a clear indicator to me that the problem was always there and that the surveyor missed it during survey. Everyone makes mistakes. From what I remember, Bum was only 2/3 years old at the time of survey...maybe the surveyor was a bit quick. The Panama yard damage theory I find HIGHLY unlikely.

Unless the multiple problems with the port hull were actually "built in" at the time of construction by Charter Cats, they were, by definition, not ". . . always there . . ."

Without a doubt, many problems were indeed built in by Charter Cats, but the extensive damage to the false keel of the port hull that someone had "repaired" at some point was almost certainly not one of them. My suspicion had always been that the original purchaser of the vessel, who sailed it from South Africa to Florida, had caused the damage somewhere during the delivery and had had it cosmetically repaired before continuing on to Florida.

Were their surveyor anyone but Charles Kanter, I, too, would just assume that the surveyor had missed the damage. Of course, no matter how highly regarded someone is, mistakes can still happen, so who knows . . .

The problem with your scenario that Pat caused the damage himself by kedging off a "sanding" (like a grounding, but softer ) is that it could not have caused the damage that was never apparent until the vessel was hauled in NZ and actual grinding opened the area up to reveal how severe it was, and that it lay beneath a previous half-assed repair. Even when Bum was hauled in Panama, the extent of the hidden damage wasn't apparent, although the osmotic blistering and areas of delamination were.

In and of themselves, osmotic blistering, and even patches of delamination, are neither rare, nor evidence of potential catastrophic failure. The hidden damage to the false keels, particularly that on the port hull, was the source of the water intrusion. But the cosmetic "repair" had successfully masked how serious it was. If they had had any idea that their vessel was so seriously compromised, they certainly wouldn't have simply had the bottom painted, re-splashed and headed across the Pacific.

* * *

I have gone back in their logs to re-read the section detailing their time in Panama, and I can provide the following:

- Flamenco was the yard that hauled their vessel.
- The source of the filthy grease that had been splattered across her decks was workers doing maintenance on the travelift right next to Bum.
- The damage and shoddy repair to the port hull was almost certainly not caused at the Flamenco yard, as Pat and Ali spent every night aboard.
- If workers at Flamenco had done the damage and quickly "repaired" it, then they knowingly were putting sailors lives at risk to evade responsibility for the damage and costly repairs.
- Their insistence that Flamenco clean the grease spots from their vessel delayed the time Bum was re-splashed, and Flamenco wanted to charge them for the extra days on the hard.
- When the Schultes were making arrangements with Flamenco to have their vessel hauled and the bottom re-painted, they asked if the yard had showers available. They were told, "No. We've only been open for three years."

For those who would like to read about the time the Schultes were passing through Panama, go to:

bumfuzzle april 2004

Their arrival off Colon begins April 15, 2004, and their time there is detailed in the logs up to the May 9, 2004 entry from the Pearl Islands.

To read the details of how extensive the hidden damage was, go to:

bumfuzzle october 2004

and scroll down to the entries beginning October 30, 2004. The forced interruption of their voyage caused a prolonged layover in NZ (with a brief flight home to St. Paul, MN over Christmas) so there is a lot of detail about their time exploring NZ to wade through, with the repair history mixed in sporadically. If you have the time, it's an interesting read. The log entry for April 20, 2005 is their last one from NZ, just as they headed across the Tasman Sea for Australia.

TaoJones

[lizmark]

I have felt like adding an extension to my Jag to add a little speed and possibly load carrying ability (sometimes we have a few too many guests). Can you tell me more about it? It is simply added to the stern? I am pretty handy with fiberglass, does it look like something a amatuer builder could retrofit. Maybee eric could sell me prefab pieces?

[akmike]

I recently returned from a great 6 month cruise on my Jaguar 36. I had no issues in 3000nms. I can tell you she is built for offshore use. Check out my website for more info: cruisingcat.com

[lizmark]

Awesome, I have been in 10-12 foot steep seas a couple of times and the boat is far more capable than the captain.

[aquavida]

be v. careful ....do yr homework .....ripoff artists....jag 36..i know many people ripped off by them.

[Want to sail]

I hope the Jaguar does make a comeback. We are new owners of a 2002 Wildcat and love the boat. We are still newbees and in the process of learning to sail a cat but have found the boat to be the right one for us. Our children and grandchildren have completely enjoyed their time with us on the boat and can't believe how much room there is inside and out. We hit some ruff conditions during our maiden voyage to our home port and the boat always felt safe. I would love to hear more from other Wildcat/Jaguar owners on modifications they have made to their boats.

Deby

[Intentional Drifter]

You might want to read their own words describing their background, at:
catamarans and multihulls for sale | new and used | Catamaran-World.com - About Us

Let me tell you, I'd be very suspicious of sending those people any of my money.

ID

[akmike]

Good you Deby! Choosing a cruising home is most difficult and given the cost of boats it’s completely out of most people budgets. That’s where price vs value comes in and I tell everyone that Jaguar is tops. No, mine is not finished to the tee but I can get to every wire and hose easily. The boat sails like dream. I have had to do minor fixes as with any boat but overall we have had no problems with the boat. We have put in a 3.5kw NextGen that runs the two 12K BUT A/Cs if need be and added a watermaker that we used a lot in Central America. Fact is we bought our boat and have been sailing it for 2 years in virtual luxury instead of still saving to buy a production cat for $100-200K more! I can’t speak for others but I know several Charter Cat owners that would but a new one today,we love our MiKat! See a video of us crossing the Gulf, it’s a blast sailing our boat! cruisingcat.com