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Old 25-02-2014, 08:45   #46
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Re: cost question

J.P. Morgan said it best: "If you have to ask the cost of a yacht, you probably can't afford it." It's always going to end up costing more than you thought or were prepared for. Take up golf or knitting instead.
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Old 25-02-2014, 09:06   #47
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Re: cost question

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Originally Posted by scarlet View Post

So, again... it is finding a good balance... and really all your comments have been extremely helpful.. I just need to run some numbers.. and figure out best and worst case scenerio... to make sure our 'worst case scenerio' won't be over what we could afford...

BTW.. does everyone think in these terms? or am I just particularily concerned?
This is pretty similar to what one would do with almost ANY significant purchase. Cars (some cost close to six figures, so wouldn't one do some due diligence by reading Car Talk?), houses (even new builds have teething issues, so inspections are just like surveys), and even computers (Celeron processors are slow and don't multi-task too well but they are a lot less expensive than some of the others out there and can work for many of us who just do web surfing - kinda like the difference between manual and electrical winches or anchoring without a windlass).

I don't think you're overly concerned, BUT the respondents are correct (Valhalla's advice summarizes it well). What YOUR budget includes, and what others may have included can ONLY be done by YOU once you know what the individual items are.

Beth & Evans' website and book are invaluable.

So, too, I recommend Nigel Calder's Cruisers Handbook, with very good material.

Here's another reference i suggest for folks to read who ask your kind of question (clock left pane on Journal, a very good appendix is at the back of the blog): ICW and the Bahamas

Any statistical analysis has to be based on OPTIONS and the spread of expected costs. I once performed that kind of analysis for a client and we agreed that for the unknown costs we would provide both a low (lowball?) estimate and a high estimate, in many cases they were different by 100%. After a year or so of bidding out portions of the work, the differences between the total low & high costs came much, much closer.

The reference books and the material and answers provided in the response to your question should give you pretty much all you need to start your own "spreadsheet."

As a new-to-sailing person, you're bound to have this kind of question. But approaching it from the "Why should a 50 foot boat have twice the costs of a 40 foot boat?" is not really valid at this point in time, because experience has shown that, like real estate, the answer lies in "condition, condition, condition" for every used boat question that is raised and answered on this and any other boating forum. No one can know, we and you included, whether or not the 50 footer just had new furling gear installed or if the 40 footer just had all its electrical systems upgraded. It's boat-specific as you do your searching, not generally statistical by then.

In the Completely Overwhelmed concurrent topic (see the right pane for Recent Discussions) one respondent mentioned this important fact:

Consider that if you double the dimensions of a boat, you have one that is 8 times larger. That's how the laws of relativity and similitude work when doubling the dimensions of a boat. See the Nature of Boats by Dave Gerr, Chapter 13."

Another answer to your question, and another good reference book.

Good luck, happy hunting.
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Old 25-02-2014, 09:12   #48
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Re: cost question

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Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
J.P. Morgan said it best: "If you have to ask the cost of a yacht, you probably can't afford it." It's always going to end up costing more than you thought or were prepared for. Take up golf or knitting instead.

Roy.. I TOTALLY do not believe that. There are tons of people who live this lifestyle with all levels of income... and the vast majority of them do well. The solution is buying within your means. the same is true with other huge purchases.. such as a house. No one buys a house without asking "how much".. doesn't mean they can't afford it.. it is just part of the planning process.

When we bought our house.. we did the same sort of thing I'm doing now.. factoring in cost of the house.. insurance.. taxes. Then replacement costs for major things like roof.. furnace.. etc. Then also looked at those items we wanted to update. And finally, the lifestyle we wanted to live outside of the home. Then after looking at all those figures... we had a really good idea of what we were willing and able to spend..

I'm just trying to make a well informed decision.. Don't want to be "boat poor".. for some people that means a million dollar yacht will do.. other's it means $50,000.. I'm just trying to figure out where we fall..
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Old 25-02-2014, 09:17   #49
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Re: cost question

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I'm just trying to make a well informed decision.. Don't want to be "boat poor".. for some people that means a million dollar yacht will do.. other's it means $50,000.. I'm just trying to figure out where we fall..
Nah, you're doing the right thing. Just don't get confused and think you can do it all by internet forum or even reading books, though Leonard's book is a must. You can get some good ideas here, but at a certain point you have to get out there and do some sailing and look at some boats.
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Old 25-02-2014, 09:25   #50
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Re: cost question

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Scarlet,

I know how much of a struggle this question is. Everyone has gone through this at some point, and it is very difficult to answer without making some assumptions (many have been listed in this thread). Attached is a PDF from Beth Leonard that is an excerpt from her book The Voyager's Handbook. I downloaded the PDF from her web site (at no cost) before I decided to buy the book. I found this book to be the best single resource to prepare for cruising and living aboard. I recommend it to every person that is new to cruising or living aboard. Get it and read the section on selecting a boat before you layout 1/2 million $.

The article in the PDF shows some of the variables that relate to cruising costs and lumps the scenarios into three example cruisers. The costs are a little dated, but give you the idea. There is much more more detail in the book. The boat maintenance costs are directly related to how much work you do yourself and how you leverage things like haul outs (grouping related work around haul out cost) as an example.

We do most of the work ourselves but do hire out some jobs. We seem to spend boat maintenance money in chunks every 2-3 years but average out around 5-7% of our purchase price per year. Our boat is well equipped and was in decent shape with fairly new sails and canvas when we bought her. We also got a very good deal on her, so I am thinking that if we paid normal selling price the amount would be more like 8-10%, and our planning budget is 8%. This is boat maintenance only. Marina and normal boat operating costs (like fuel) are not included.

There is a big difference between outfitting (getting the boat ready) and annual maintenance. Beth's book does a good job of outlining those aspects, as well as all aspects of the cruising lifestyle.

PM me if you would like more detail.
Thank you so much for the heads up about the book... I'll add that to my growing collection.. and you are right.. I guess I need to separate out "outfitting"... that we won't be able to factor until we actually find a boat to purchase..
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Old 25-02-2014, 09:33   #51
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Re: cost question

i found a cheap boat next door to my 35 ft ericson and i pursued it. po blew engine and did some other wonderful things before i was able to wrench it from his still shaking paws....and i have found that repairing this boat is not as bad a job as the interwebz experts sitting behind desks all say it will be.
researching wont tellyou how to find th e best options for repāiring. nor will interwebz help find the boat.....
as i said, mine was located next door to my other boat......yes i have had to repair stuff, but those repairs were not as difficult nor as expensive as was stated by 105 usd per hour repair guys in a yard.
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Old 25-02-2014, 09:33   #52
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Re: cost question

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
Nah, you're doing the right thing. Just don't get confused and think you can do it all by internet forum or even reading books, though Leonard's book is a must. You can get some good ideas here, but at a certain point you have to get out there and do some sailing and look at some boats.
Well put...I second that! I studied the hell out of buying our boat for cruising, and having owned several other boats before this one I thought I had a leg up. I learned more in 6 months of owning this boat than all the studying I could do...and still learning every day. It is important to do due diligence like you are doing now, but even more important to get the "hands on" experience. Looking at a lot of boats (especially used ones - even if you are buying a new one) helps with that.

One other thought...we used a broker in our last boat search and had a good experience. They (a couple) gave us an experienced perspective on maintaining the boats we looked at and we learned a lot from them. I am not sure that all brokers would do this, but they were fine with showing some used boats even if you were going to go with a new one. That may be a way to get "hands on" experience.
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Old 25-02-2014, 12:05   #53
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Re: cost question

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Originally Posted by scarlet View Post
Huh? are you talking about me? because I don't have any children... and my grandparents are deceased.. and we are not going big.

But, if we are deciding between a $300,000 and a $400,000 boat.. is not that much of a difference in price of the boat.. but, could mean a huge difference in quality and liveablilty. The only problem is... how much is the after purchase expenses? There is a HUGE range on that.. and whilst we could easily afford an expensive year or two... 10 years at that high dollar amount would put a damper on our fun.. and future retirement years..for sure...

So, again... it is finding a good balance... and really all your comments have been extremely helpful.. I just need to run some numbers.. and figure out best and worst case scenerio... to make sure our 'worst case scenerio' won't be over what we could afford...

BTW.. does everyone think in these terms? or am I just particularily concerned?
My apologies. I must have you confused with another member that was asking the same questions a while back but had a family etc. Sorry to have you mixed up. (it's easy these days ).

Everyone that is planning on buying a boat goes through the same thought processes to some degree. Some are more blinded by "love" and delve less deeply into the realities of ownership. We did so when we bought our Gemini a few years ago. We delusionaly thought we could take every other weekend off and the occasional 3-4 day weekend too. Plus vacation time. That didn't last in the real world. Work realities ate away at weekends and maintenance ate away at other days. Then add weather and family time and we found it did not work well enough to pay the expenses. Though the times we took a month off to cruise were especially memorable. The next boat, if there is to be one, that has all the systems aboard I will live on. The only way I see to keep up with stuff and enjoy the ride.

I am quite conservative in money estimation department. Part of how I have accumulated what I have. I think you are doing the proper due diligence. I stay with the high side so I am not disappointed in the end. If it says $1.89 I am not fooled. It looks like a 2 to me.

Again, I am sorry for my identity confusion.
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Old 25-02-2014, 13:01   #54
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Re: cost question

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My apologies. I must have you confused with another member that was asking the same questions a while back but had a family etc. Sorry to have you mixed up. (it's easy these days ).


I am quite conservative in money estimation department. Part of how I have accumulated what I have. I think you are doing the proper due diligence. I stay with the high side so I am not disappointed in the end. If it says $1.89 I am not fooled. It looks like a 2 to me.

Again, I am sorry for my identity confusion.
No worries!! I was scared for a minute that I might have had a big family around that I had forgotten about..

And, I am totally with you on the "conservative in money" department. Scott and I learned a decade or more ago.. that the best thing to do was live well beneath our means.. that's why we are able to retire when we reach 55... when others in our income bracket tell us they will never retire. We just want to do the best we can financially with a boat.. (which is, by definition.. and bad financial decision.. Trying to minimize our loss... and come out, after 10 years.. with enough to see us through the rest of our retirement years..
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Old 25-02-2014, 13:21   #55
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Re: cost question

all true. but was thinking. no flood insurance. morgage insurance. prop tax. rent ect. I will save 16,000 in rent, so if i sell the 1990 used 32k boat for lets say 20k in 5 years. Add up 16 x 5 / 5k insurance x 5 / 4k ish prop tax x 5.
Those numbers work for me! It's all realative yes?

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
And don't forget to factor in what everybody seems to ignore - depreciation.

People seem to think this is not a real cost but if you buy a boat for $500K and sell it for $200K in 10 years this is a cost of $30K per annum even ignoring the very real issue of opportunity cost (the loss of investing that income over 10 years).

You will get a bunch of people here stating that they bought and sold for the same price but they are in a tiny minority. The blunt fact is that boats depreciate especially in the first few years.
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Old 25-02-2014, 17:32   #56
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Re: cost question

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I had thought of that.. and was alloting for a 50% depreciation over 10 years... I'm sure there is some variances.. but, I figured a $500,000 boat, after 10 years in good shape, wouldn't go for less than $250,000. And a $300,000 boat, after 10 years in good shape, wouldn't go for less than $150,000. I'm sure those are agressive numbers.. but.. hey... plan for the worst case scenerio..
I studied this a little. I reckon 50% is about right, but plus inflation. So the new boat bought now will be worth half the cost of of what a new one will then cost after ten years. This is on average. Worse in bad times, better in good economic times. Subsequent decades a bit less, but of course wear and tear kicks in to compensate.

I spend on average 5-6% of boat value plus depreciation and finance for all boat costs. I do a lot if DIY.
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Old 25-02-2014, 22:38   #57
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Re: cost question

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Way to many variables to have a set percentage. Age of boat, condition of boat, how is the boat equipped, is the owner a DIY type individual, do the owners work at a chandlery and get a good discount. The list goes on.
Here are some examples of the variables. Two motors and sail drives may well cost around $US25k+. On the other hand I have two 9.9 Yamaha long shafts in my cat. I can throw a block and tackle over the boom, lift them out, throw them in the tender, and take them ashore for repair. Even new ones run just over $US3k. Heads are in constant need of lots of messy stuff, but a composting head needs much less messy stuff. Is an Engel enough for your needs or do you need a freezer, with the accompanying increased battery bank and more solar/wind/genset charging ability. Same goes for sails, mylar Doyles are great but may well cost ten times as much as a used sail from Bacon. Conventional wire life lines can be replaced with lower cost rope.

Another thing to consider is how you will be using your boat. There is another thread about cruising on $US500 or $US5,000 a month. You could easily spend $US5,000 in some places in Key West or the like. You could easily get by with $US500 if you anchored off Boca Grande and the Marquesas for a few months with side trips to Key West/Marathon to stock up on water, food, gas, and a hot shower. When you get your boat hauled it can be at an expensive marina where all work has to be done by the marina employees or you can find an out of the way place off the coast and do most of the work yourself.

No one can tell you where you or your boat will fit in the big picture. But as you pointed out there are lots of folks at both extremes who are cruising.
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Old 26-02-2014, 07:11   #58
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Re: cost question

Scarlet, there is a book written by a couple who had no experience sailing who bought a used cat and took off sailing in the Bahamas and the Caribbean for two years. It includes significant material on their budget and the repairs they required during their time aboard:

A Sail of Two Idiots: 100+ Lessons and Laughs from a Non-Sailor Who Quit the Rat Race, Took the Helm, and Sailed to a New Life in the Caribbean: Renee Petrillo: 9780071779845: Amazon.com: Books

You may find it informative.

Brad
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Old 26-02-2014, 08:39   #59
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Re: cost question

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Scarlet, there is a book written by a couple who had no experience sailing who bought a used cat and took off sailing in the Bahamas and the Caribbean for two years. It includes significant material on their budget and the repairs they required during their time aboard:

A Sail of Two Idiots: 100+ Lessons and Laughs from a Non-Sailor Who Quit the Rat Race, Took the Helm, and Sailed to a New Life in the Caribbean: Renee Petrillo: 9780071779845: Amazon.com: Books

You may find it informative.

Brad

OMG!!!!! When Scott and I venture out.. we can write "volume 2"... Knowing our sence of humor.. and given the circumstances.. I can totally see this being us!! I can also see that there will be some good information in there too.. thanks for the heads up..
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Old 26-02-2014, 11:48   #60
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Re: cost question

Scarlet, I'm glad you took it the right way - the title was in no way meant to insult you and your husband. I think you will find the book helpful, not just on the issues of maintenance and other costs associated with cruising on a 7 year old catamaran (which is what they purchased), but also on the viability of what you are planning. They purchased the boat before they had sold their house (which they needed to finance everything) and took off to the Bahamas from Miami with zero sailing experience. Yes, zero. They hired a delivery skipper to get them there and then figured they could continue on their own. The amazing thing is that they did and survived it! What you and your husband plan sounds far more sensible to me.

Brad
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