Comments on Gaff Rigged Schooner Cat

[minaret]

Originally Posted by atoll

ketch or schooner rig down wind is about as much use as a 4x4 on a racetrack,,lol, much better one big mast that you can hang big head sails off,,
though if you never go any where the twin 100 hp may come in handy......

Ketch's are for downwind sailing, schooners are for sailing to weather. That's why a ketch has more sail area forward, and a schooner more sail area aft. Schooners suck downwind because the foremast is shorter than the main, which means you cant fly a big spinnaker, and if you douse or reef the main to balance the helm downwind you are left sailing on the foremast alone. The ketch is the opposite, sails downwind like a champ because the main is well forward, can carry big downwind sails, etc. Removing the mizzen from a ketch rig is a truly bad idea, unless you also move the main aft to compensate. A ketch that has had this done to it will never come close to balancing her helm to weather without the mizzen to offset the main and jib, because the main will be too far forward, which will develop substantial lee helm as the boat will constantly want to fall off. If you need 30-40 degrees of rudder angle to hold your course to weather, you are putting unnecessary wear on your steering gear and slowing the boat dramatically. Thats why a schooner is great to weather, the helm just wants to balance when sailing upwind because the main is aft.

[atoll]

good post and good points,but allways found the best thing about a mizzen was it provided good places to hang a sun awning/rain catcher from.............,any thing aft of the beam its useless.........

[Sand crab]

It seems like ketchs outnumber schooners 10 to 1 or more. Is the only reason for the improved downwind sailing? This is really educational. I've only ever sailed a boat with one stick. I love you guys. This is what the forum is for. BOB

[minaret]

Originally Posted by atoll

good post and good points,but allways found the best thing about a mizzen was it provided good places to hang a sun awning/rain catcher from.............,any thing aft of the beam its useless.........

Absolutely agree. The mizzen's sole purpose is to balance the ketch's further forward placed rig when it needs to sail to weather, sailing downwind it will do the opposite and negate the natural effect of that placement, ie a balanced helm and large rig when sailing downhill. Many ketch's still benefit from the mizzen through a broad reach though, depending on conditions. Mine likes some. Oh, and the mizzen can make a great riding sail while at anchor, keeping the boats head to wind regardless of it's natural balance or cross currents. It helps if you have a furling mizzen like I do, just unfurl a bit. Also makes a great very large radar pole mount, I mount a lot of gear on mine.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by minaret

Absolutely agree. The mizzen's sole purpose is to balance the ketch's further forward placed rig when it needs to sail to weather, sailing downwind it will do the opposite and negate the natural effect of that placement, ie a balanced helm and large rig when sailing downhill. Many ketch's still benefit from the mizzen through a broad reach though, depending on conditions. Mine likes some. Oh, and the mizzen can make a great riding sail while at anchor, keeping the boats head to wind regardless of it's natural balance or cross currents. It helps if you have a furling mizzen like I do, just unfurl a bit. Also makes a great very large radar pole mount, I mount a lot of gear on mine.

all good points i guess sandcrab is going to have to bite the bullet and spend the kids inheritance instead of kicking tires.............. this is the sister ship that i'm going out to senegal to do the electriks on in the next few months,at 70 ft and under $100,000 for a flat deck vessel capable of 15 knots........

Ontong Java.MP4 - YouTube

[minaret]

I love it! The lanyards and deadeyes, the funky raked stick with super long gaff and boom that look almost like a lateen or crab claw even, and all the structural beams which have been lashed and frapped in place are all very old school. Fascinating stuff. I'd love to see her under sail. Is that a steering oar on the stern mounted athwartships between the rudders?
I forgot the other obvious advantage of a mizzen on the ketch rig, which is the ability to fly a mule, or mizzen staysail. Essentially the same as flying a spinnaker from the mizzen. My ketch reaches under asym spinnaker and mizzen staysail amazingly well.

[atoll]

i will be building one bigger than this,but this is the last one,if you cant open this,just look hans klaar,ontong java on utube or google............ under sail.......self steerin with an innertube lol

ontong java crab claw voyage canoe - Wharram Builders and Friends

[kaimusailing]

Oh boy, crab claw!
Since we are looking at a Wharram-like boat, and Wharram is using schooner rigs on some of his larger designs, we can look at how they are faring. Wharram's own 63 ft has schooner rig with equal main and foresail. Clement's 46 ft also. The sail is derived from Dutch gaff sails with a small gaff almost giving a square top shape to the sail. The sail is sleeved around the mast which gives good flow at the luff. These are good reaching sails. It's easier to handle two smaller sails than one great big one.
I read an old AYRS article by a fellow who claimed to have built models of a proposed 51' Wharram and tested various rigs and ended up with a cutter rig as the one that performed best. That is the rig I have on my boat and it works OK. The gaff sails look interesting though, maybe someday if I have to replace the mast.

[atoll]

i think you will find the polynesians perfected the rig and hulls, others have tried to imitate it,as james wharram said to me the other day.............

[David_Old_Jersey]

Nice looking boat

But seems a bit pricey (USD500k) - says replacement cost USD1.5million!.........for those sort of numbers I don't understand why they went for a plywood hull .

Whether or not one agrees it is a material invented to punish lazy owners , it has a reputational problem in being seen as a "cheap" method of construction. Personally I would have gone for Aluminium or if in wood some form of strip plank construction.....not to say that these don't have own issues, but certainly not the same rep as plywood. Can't say I would spend that much money on something built out of veneered MDF........

[boatsmith]

This boat was at the Miami show last year. Having an ongoing affair with Wharrams I did check her out. The fwd ladder is very agricultural. Functional maybe, but not on my boat. Each mast has two electric halyard winches . They are on opposite sides of the boat. You can,t reach them both at the same time. The large open central deck area is like a village square, but the foreboom is on a fixed gooseneck which prvents the boom from being raised up to provide a ridgepole for a deck awning. You have to get to your knees to cross under te boom. There is not comfortable seat anywhere on deck. The seats in the backwere 2x10s IIRC. There are two guest cabins and a crews cabin. To me the boat is layed out in a very starnge way. I don,t see it as a day charter boat or a cruiser or a liveaboard. It looks very cool from afar but the gleam dims upon closer inspection. Of course this is all just my opinion. It,s big and expensive but IMO this is an odd boat and will require significant work to make it a really suitable boat for most people.

[Sand crab]

Thanks Boatsmith. Yup, it's an odd one. My friend and I were kicking this one around and playing the what if game. We knew right away that it would cost 100s of boat bucks to get it to an acceptable configuration. None of us had ever sailed a gaff rig or a Wharram so that was the main purpose of my OP. The whole deal, partnership, refit, naval architect (Irens?) USCG doc has so many issues and problems that most likely it will not happen. If we ever decided to persue it our offer would be substatially lower than asking. By that I mean really low. Really, Really, Low. BOB

[kaimusailing]

Here ya go, the real thing:

View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com

[Bash]

Originally Posted by hummingway

I think you are missing some of the benefits. Once the sails are down you have a volleyball court, or a dance floor and take her to the high latitudes and you have your very own skating rink!

space for a hot tub.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by kaimusailing

Here ya go, the real thing:

View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com

I looked at that one a few days ago, again. It's also been up for sale for a long time because its in KENYA. One wonders about haulout facilities and surveyers there.