Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009

In terms of bridgedeck slamming. I measured my boat before we set sail: 66cm at the lowest point. Not incredibly high, but not very low either. Throughout the whole trip we had no problems with slamming or wave slapping.

Sounds like a great trip, '09. The Fastcat specs online (at FastCat 435: a lightweight performance ocean-cruising catamaran ) say it has a bridgedeck clearance of .85m, but you measured .66m. Does this mean that you are .19m below her marks? For us Yanks, that's 7 1/4". That would be quite a bit below her marks. Was she above her marks when launched, or is she heavier than claimed? .66 is only very slightly more than 2' of bridgedeck clearance, which isn't a lot for a boat of that size, slightly less than 5% of the DWL. The designers apparently intended for her to have 6.16% of bridge deck clearance, compared to the DWL.

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by BigCat

The Fastcat specs online (at FastCat 435: a lightweight performance ocean-cruising catamaran ) say it has a bridgedeck clearance of .85m, but you measured .66m. Does this mean that you are .19m below her marks?

My boat was fully loaded at the time. The specs are for the production boat. I have the proto type, which is slightly heavier and therefore sits lower in the water.

Having said that, I had no problems with slapping on the entire trip and I can promise you that the North Sea with short steep waves would be torture if the cat wasn't properly designed.

It's easy to only look at figures and numbers, but the shape of the boat and weight distribution can be just as important.

[44'cruisingcat]

Hi Andreas, congratulations on your boat.

It sounds to me as though you are very happy with her, and why not? Sustained 10 -11 knots in sub 15 knot winds in a fully loaded 40 odd foot cruising boat is excellent.

Might not impress everyone here, but I sure wouldn't be complaining about it.

Enjoy your new boat!

[fastcat435]

Halo Andreas

I wished I could have joint you on that delivery trip , I would have come close to a divorce if I had but I am sure we will sail in the Near future.
I am very happy that you are pleased with your boat.

Greetings and have a good weekend

Gideon

[Southern Star]

Andreas, impressive peformance indeeed. Congrats to you and to Gideon!

Brad

[olliric]

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009

I don’t have a lot of experience with cats, having been a monohull sailor my entire life. Now that I’m planning a circumnavigation, I’m seriously looking at catamarans. The thing is that I don’t have the knowledge compounded by owning and sailing several cats, so I turn to you.

When trying to pick a cat that will be good for water sailing">blue water sailing and comfortable to live on for a few years what characteristics do you think I should look for?

Here is a list of what I’ve put down, that I hope you will comment on:
1. Size. In order to live comfortably, I think it should be between 35 – 44 feet in length. This is from both a safety and a comfort point of view (and budgetary restraints).
2. Visibility from inside when seated. Many catamarans I look at have a large saloon, with lots of light coming in from the windows, but as soon as you sit down on the couch, you don’t see the horizon outside. I consider it important not only for safety, but also for the pleasure of looking outside that you should be able to have as close to 360 degrees visibility as possible when seated in the saloon.
3. Good sailing performance. Some cats sail great when they have no extra gear on board, but are sluggish and have poor performance when they get loaded with the gear and supplies necessary for a circumnavigation.
4. A forward facing nav station inside.
5. A good galley up.
6. A comfortable cockpit with good protection from the elements.
7. A high bridgedeck clearance, but how high is enough? … How is the trade-off between clearance and windage?
7. A good targa for solar panels, radar, GPS and dingy davits.

Things I don’t really want:
1. Daggerboards – When you live and sail on a boat constantly in new waters, there is a large chance, no matter how careful you are, that at some point in time you will have “a-touch-and-go” or a grounding. With daggerboards that could mean serious structural damage to the cat.
That's actually all I could think of now, but I'm sure you can think of more.

These are the design things I've thought of so far. In terms of on board things, like heating, watermaker, etc., I have a long list as well, but since these are the same for mono’s and multi’s, I only want to look at specific design elements on a cat in this thread. If you know of cats that have many desirable design elements or examples of great design, I would love to see them or read more about them.

Here is may take on a cat suitable for long range cruising/circumnavigation in the tropical belt. I hope you won’t get bored….
Except for a charter on a Lagoon 56 I have always sailed mono but I have converted to cat and I hopefully will get one soon.
I love to sail so for me sail handling, running the boat and performance are very important and not a chore. I don't want a cat to make my appartment float.
Performance is not just fun. It is a necessity in the tropical belt. I have sailed 15000 miles on a Farr 46 (mono) during a circumnavigation and I witnessed time and time again the majority of yachts motorsailing for days while we were sailing in light air and having a ball at it. One of the yacht we sailed with was a loaded cat (Privilege 48). They practically motorsailed from Thailand to the Med. At the end of the cruise, the sails, engines and most everying were beaten down and worn.
Windward performance is also very important, although the vast majority of sailing will be downwind there will be days of upwind. For sure all the Red Sea (very tough 1500 miles!!) and during island hopping to reach some nice locations. A cat that does not sail close to the wind and slams is a no-no to me and it's a cruel sailor torture.
Performance if used wisely also means safety and comfort. A very light cat that is barely immersed (.5m draft) will have a much more comfortable ride than one that draws 1 m or more. With a lot of draft the inertia caused by the wave action with time will wear down the crew and the boat itself. I have seen it on the Lagoon 560: cracks on the gelcoat and possible delamination in various spots. In heavy weather a light boat is also safer for a number of other reasons.
Speed will also add to the enjoyment of the cruise. The cruising grounds increase and so does the time in each destination. On a world cruise the difference can be quite a bit.
I believe it is possible to cruise comfortably without giving up performance. Here is my recipe:
- Lenght 45 to 50' - Smaller one have a rougher ride in open ocean, low clearance and can't carry much payload
- Displacement up to 8 ton
- Length to beam ratio. 11 to 14
- Bridge deck clearance .8m or better.
- Daggerboards.
- About 120-130 sqm sail area + Gennaker on furler. Baby stay for heavy weather sailing.
- Galley up. Down if less than 45'
- Twin wheels in cockpit.
- Foward facing chart table and stool for piloting/watchkeeping.
- Twin diesel (35-40 hp) sail drive in separate ER. Folding props.
- Twin 130A alternators, 600 Ah house batteries and 500-600 W solar panels. 3KW inverters. International dual AC capability.
- 12 v water cooled and separate fridge and freezer.
- Engine driven watermaker (120 l/hour). Small tanks
- Washing machine
- Air conditioning for shore power use in hot marinas.
- 3.2 m dinghy with 15 HP outboard and wheels.
- One very good primary anchor and rode + light secondary.

The cats that are closest to this spec are the Australian kit cats. Many to choose from. My favourite is the Spirited 480. Having one built in Thailand or wherever labor is cheap will offer a great custom boat a lot cheaper and better than the production ones. Unfortunately the industry as whole offers mostly poorly built charter type boats which overall are not well suited for long range cruising. The Outremer or Freydis are good more expensive alternative.
It will be a boat for real and proficient sailors and not for retired megaRV turists. My friend on the Farr 46 went around the world on a boat with 3m draft and an america's cup keel and never hit anything or had a problem. So do all the professional captains of the 30000 ships sailing every day on a single main engine.
In most cases boats are chosen not based on engineering specs but rather on the level of confidence or lack of that the crew has. If you run onto a reef with a steel boat a condomaran or a performance cat you shipwrech and are in very deep troubles even in a floating tank. The point is learn your skill first then chose the boat.

[44'cruisingcat]

One thing to check with the Spirited is the ventilation of the saloon. In the 380 it is quite poor, with large heavily raked windows letting in a lot of heat, but only a small hatch in the mast recess to let in a little air. The hulls are well ventilated, but the saloon needs more. Could be different on the 480 though.

[olliric]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

One thing to check with the Spirited is the ventilation of the saloon. In the 380 it is quite poor, with large heavily raked windows letting in a lot of heat, but only a small hatch in the mast recess to let in a little air. The hulls are well ventilated, but the saloon needs more. Could be different on the 480 though.

You are right, very poor ventilation for the tropics. I have seen one being built here in Washington and there are ways to improve the ventilation.
Adding opening hatches in the windows or roof top should work.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by olliric

You are right, very poor ventilation for the tropics. I have seen one being built here in Washington and there are ways to improve the ventilation.
Adding opening hatches in the windows or roof top should work.

Yes, I am disappointed in myself for going the lower windage sleeker look over the 45o angle with an eybrow look on my project.

To pay for my foolishnes I will be installing hatches like these in the front so the entire front 4 windows will be opening and gas strutted

They can do them with radiused corners for me

Marine Windows, Boat Windscreens, Sliding Windows, Hatches, Sailfish Marine Windscreens & Hatches PTY LTD

[olliric]

Originally Posted by cat man do

Yes, I am disappointed in myself for going the lower windage sleeker look over the 45o angle with an eybrow look on my project.

To pay for my foolishnes I will be installing hatches like these in the front so the entire front 4 windows will be opening and gas strutted

They can do them with radiused corners for me

A big full opening window sounds nice but I am afraid that may turn out bulky, heavy (I am very weight conscious) expensive and possibly difficult to seal due to the large frame twisting under sail. I was thinking of an opening glass window cut in about a third of the window. The size of a deck hatch should provide enough ventilation and maintain visibility from inside.
You will be very happy with your low windage cabin the first time you will be in a blow at the anchor or motoring into the wind. Windage is a definite disadvantage of catamarans.
In fact I find that the Spirited 480 windage reduction gained with the sloped cabin is lost to the very high freeboard and high coach roof. The overall headroom of 2.15 m creates a freeboard of around 1.9 m and also make the boat look stubby despite the 48' length.

[Stella Polaris]

It's been a very long time since I last posted anything on Cruisers Forum. There's a LOT of reasons for it ... mainly because I was busy sailing

I took African Innovation from Norway to the Caribbean, through the Panam a canal and all the way to Australia, stopping by some unbelievable spots on the way. I met some truly amazing people on the way and had an amazing time.

As the title implies I am now boatless. I sold my boat in Sydney at a huge loss. The Australian second-hand boating market was nowhere near as strong as a lot of people had hoped (me included) and I also got scre... on the exchange rates, but most importantly Fastcat was a brand that was unknown in Australia and 3 different surveyors valued the boat at under half of what I paid for her. This was in light of their experience and in comparison to other boats. It was painful. I didn't have the time or money to transport the boat elsewhere, so I sold her at a real discount. I wasn't desperate to sell, but I saw the writing on the wall, when after 4 months of heavy advertising by the largest brokerage firm in Australia, only 2 people had inquired about the boat ... incidentally the second guy bought the boat. I believe that the new boat name is "Double Dutch".

My lesson for next time: As Phil Berman once told me and I ignored: Make sure you buy a boat from a well known brand if ever you plan to sell it. I've learned that the hard way. Was a FastCat everything I was looking for when I bought the boat? At the time I thought so, which this thread going back in time shows, but knowing what I know now I would have chosen differently. I could write a lot about the FastCats, but now that I am an ex-owner I can focus on the future instead of looking back. In a few years I'll probably be back on the market to buy a boat to do the trip all over again. My criteria then will be different, because one thing is for sure: You see the same sunsets and the same sights no matter what boat you sail on.

Fair seas and following winds to all of you!

[andreas.mehlin]

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009

It's been a very long time since I last posted anything on Cruisers Forum. There's a LOT of reasons for it ... mainly because I was busy sailing

I took African Innovation from Norway to the Caribbean, through the Panam a canal and all the way to Australia, stopping by some unbelievable spots on the way. I met some truly amazing people on the way and had an amazing time.

As the title implies I am now boatless. I sold my boat in Sydney at a huge loss. The Australian second-hand boating market was nowhere near as strong as a lot of people had hoped (me included) and I also got scre... on the exchange rates, but most importantly Fastcat was a brand that was unknown in Australia and 3 different surveyors valued the boat at under half of what I paid for her. This was in light of their experience and in comparison to other boats. It was painful. I didn't have the time or money to transport the boat elsewhere, so I sold her at a real discount. I wasn't desperate to sell, but I saw the writing on the wall, when after 4 months of heavy advertising by the largest brokerage firm in Australia, only 2 people had inquired about the boat ... incidentally the second guy bought the boat. I believe that the new boat name is "Double Dutch".

My lesson for next time: As Phil Berman once told me and I ignored: Make sure you buy a boat from a well known brand if ever you plan to sell it. I've learned that the hard way. Was a FastCat everything I was looking for when I bought the boat? At the time I thought so, which this thread going back in time shows, but knowing what I know now I would have chosen differently. I could write a lot about the FastCats, but now that I am an ex-owner I can focus on the future instead of looking back. In a few years I'll probably be back on the market to buy a boat to do the trip all over again. My criteria then will be different, because one thing is for sure: You see the same sunsets and the same sights no matter what boat you sail on.

Fair seas and following winds to all of you!

Hi Andreas!

Good post!
Myself purchased a 30 ft catamaran (Endeavourcat) in Panama 2007. We sailed it to Bundaberg, Australia, where we also sold her. We made a small profit (although it was a pretty non expensive boat). Advertised her at 70k AUD but got 80k. This was just when the financial crise showed up. Our Swedish krona dropped about 25% to the AUD. Luckily we opened up a bank account just to wait til it had been strengthen. Exchanged at 5.5 I think (today it is about 6.7SEK for an AUD)

Before we got to Australia we had talked to people where they thought would be the best place to sell a catamaran. All people said from Brisbane and further north.

If someone want to make a profit or at least get what they paid, they probably should buy a 3-5 years old boat (or older). At that point the boat has lost some value since new and can be purchased cheap. Also to keep in mind is that a cheaper boat has more potential buyers.

Vänligen
Andreas

[Southern Star]

Andreas, sorry you lost so much on resale of your boat, but glad to see it hasn't soured you on either cruising or catamarans. IMO your final point is absolutely spot on - we do see the same sunsets and sights no matter what boat we sail on. And that is something that we should keep in mind when preparing our list of desireable characteristics for a boat - a paradigm is something nice to contemplate, but for most of us the real question is what compromises we are prepared to accept in order to actually get out there and do it. For those of us on a budget, less is often more.

Brad

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by andreas.mehlin

Myself purchased a 30 ft catamaran (Endeavourcat) in Panama 2007. We sailed it to Bundaberg, Australia, where we also sold her. We made a small profit (although it was a pretty non expensive boat). Advertised her at 70k AUD but got 80k. This was just when the financial crise showed up. Our Swedish krona dropped about 25% to the AUD. Luckily we opened up a bank account just to wait til it had been strengthen. Exchanged at 5.5 I think (today it is about 6.7SEK for an AUD)

Hey Andreas,
You were part of the group that made it across and sold your boats just before the drop. Excellent timing I think everyone that sailed to Australia and NZ with plans to sell their boats last year, had you and people that sailed before you in mind.

Originally Posted by andreas.mehlin

If someone want to make a profit or at least get what they paid, they probably should buy a 3-5 years old boat (or older). At that point the boat has lost some value since new and can be purchased cheap. Also to keep in mind is that a cheaper boat has more potential buyers.

Completely agree. Especially the last sentence. Anyone planning to do this, should take that to heart.

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Andreas, sorry you lost so much on resale of your boat, but glad to see it hasn't soured you on either cruising or catamarans.

Hey Brad

I'm not bitter (well maybe a little bit ... ) I am certainly wiser when it comes to purchasing. The thing is we all learn from our actions, at least hopefully, and this has been a big learning experience for me. Not just the selling part, but the entire trip. It was a journey no words can explain. I wouldn't trade it for anything in the World. Now I'm back in the real World to make money for a new trip

Originally Posted by Southern Star

IMO your final point is absolutely spot on - we do see the same sunsets and sights no matter what boat we sail on. And that is something that we should keep in mind when preparing our list of desireable characteristics for a boat - a paradigm is something nice to contemplate, but for most of us the real question is what compromises we are prepared to accept in order to actually get out there and do it. For those of us on a budget, less is often more.

Amen! I'm not even religious, but that is exactly the way to think. Next time I will have a very different list of characteristics ... but I will still set sail with a cat ...