Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-08-2016, 05:33   #121
Registered User
 
dirkdig's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Geelong,Australia
Boat: Lagoon 440 Pathfinder
Posts: 838
Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

After reading all these scenarios, its time to save my family from impending death and sell out cat asap.
Just in case.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________

__________________
dirkdig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 05:56   #122
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 697
Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

In all seriousness - most rescues don't involve imminently sinking boats, but severely damaged rigging/loss of electrical and bilge pumping capabilities, and most importantly - severe injuries to the fatigued crew. During the Fastnet disaster, the 30ft Grimalkin was rolled multiple times, the boat became unsailable - the skipper/owner suffered severe head injuries and during a knockdown - he was lost when another crew member had to cut his lifeline in an attempt to prevent the unconscious man from drowning. Yes the Grimalkin survived and continues on with new owners - but 3 members of the crew abandoned (leaving 1 unconscious aboard and another dying man).

The way people are talking here, you'll think being rolled around inside a monohull is just like a day in the park with bubble wrap. It completely ignores the initial stability benefits, but focuses on the decline of stability after roughly 50 degrees heel (despite the cat's benefit of probably 2-3x initial stability during most normal sea states). I'd compare it to focusing on the idea that your 1960 steel box car with no airbags/seatbelt can survive a 40mph collision with minor issues with the frame, but the driver would be dead.

I don't even own a cat - but my mate (in the process of buying one) should probably get a cat w/ 9 lives and keep it aboard eh? I've never encountered the severe conditions described in multiple posts above in a cat - but when my mate takes delivery, I'm sure we'll practice with some sort of jordan series drogue, hook it on a bridle and toss it off - let me know when someone in a cat deploying a jsd had a disaster and we'll then toss the jsd out and never sail a cat again. We can keep doing this exercise of citing inherent dangers and how it is unacceptable until the absurd consensus is no one should be near the ocean except for an arctic exploring ice breaker with nuclear power...

(I'm also open to giving up eating solid food if someone would direct me to solid food choking incident )
__________________

__________________
SV DestinyAscen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 06:23   #123
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 1,157
Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirkdig View Post
After reading all these scenarios, its time to save my family from impending death and sell out cat asap.
Just in case.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
Probably best to read through the thread again......I'm just not seeing what your seeing. Overall seems like a healthy discussion.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
daletournier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 06:35   #124
Registered User
 
Juho's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Finland
Boat: Nauticat 32
Posts: 600
Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

When thinking about catamarans and monohulls in rough weather my fears are roughly as follows.

- Catamarans have the risk of flipping over if they have too much canvas up. You need to watch the wind and possible gusts more carefully than in monos. You need to reef and reduce sails early to be on the safe side all the time. Monohulls are more forgiving in the sense that they will heel and thereby warn you. And they are likely to bounce back even after a 90 heel / slam down.

- Catamarans will not roll as much. This makes them more comfortable and as a result also safer (less crew fatigue). On the other hand, with the price of a catamaran, you can maybe buy a long (more stable) monohull. And it depends on your personal preferences which kind of movements you do and don't like.

- Monohulls may sink easier because of the ballast. But you can fight this by keeping the hull watertight, and by carrying a life raft. (And of course the ballast helps in keeping the boat upside up.)

- In high latitudes people tend to use monohulls. This is partly because of the rough weather, but also because it is simply easier to keep the monohulls warm.

- Rolling over because of the breaking waves is a situation that you don't want to experience in either category of boats. I recommend investing e.g. Jordan series drogue or other corresponding gear and deploy them before there is a major risk of rolling over.
__________________
Juho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 06:50   #125
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 16,583
Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Yes, Juho,

I was just about to write this. You saved me plenty of typing!

Cheers,
b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 08:16   #126
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,822
Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
It is storm. You have to hand steer. Therefore you have to be in cockpit. You have to have all openings closed as boat is washed by every wave.

Boat turned 180 deg or so by a 5m roller. So... what is the course of action ? Rob redford had to swim behind the boat and hold air for 3 minutes and is was bright. and just as he is secured back, boat turned around perfect timing.

How much chance you have to come out alive ?
Actually in a big storm you would have a series drogue out and you'd be secured in your bunk below.
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 15:20   #127
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 954
Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Actually in a big storm you would have a series drogue out and you'd be secured in your bunk below.
ok, that is what i was expecting. Although hoping there is better answer.

mast/rigging integrity and mast-keel bonding becomes of critical importance as one should be prepared for multiple rolls in confused seas. Number of expected rolls decreasing by width of the boat.
__________________
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 15:32   #128
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 5,800
Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen View Post
(I'm also open to giving up eating solid food if someone would direct me to solid food choking incident )
Inventor of Heimlich maneuver finally gets to use in in real life:

Henry Heimlich uses Heimlich maneuver for first time to save choking woman - CNN.com

Guess you should stick with a "liquid lunch" from now on.
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 15:33   #129
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 377
Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Actually in a big storm you would have a series drogue out and you'd be secured in your bunk below.

....praying that the large glass patio (cockpit) doors don't take a direct hit.
__________________
Seaslug Caravan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 15:38   #130
Registered User
 
Juho's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Finland
Boat: Nauticat 32
Posts: 600
Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
ok, that is what i was expecting. Although hoping there is better answer.

mast/rigging integrity and mast-keel bonding becomes of critical importance as one should be prepared for multiple rolls in confused seas. Number of expected rolls decreasing by width of the boat.
Another answer would be to get a pilothouse boat with a steering wheel inside.

But I agree that if there is a serious risk of roll, a series drogue (or something similar) should be deployed. Voluntary rolling is not recommended for any boat in any circumstances.
__________________
Juho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 15:45   #131
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 10,332
Send a message via Skype™ to Jim Cate
Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Without wanting to stir the pot excessively, we've heard of several cats being flipped on their moorings with no sail up and in flat water. One specific incident was in Little Oyster cove (off Kettering) in Tasmania. A couple of years ago there was a sudden and fierce storm which lead to the loss of several boats, and t he near loss of a brand new >million dollar 8 meter classic yacht (written up in Afloat). During that storm, which had gusts around 80 knots according to folks who sat through it, a ~35-40 ft catamaran on a mooring was flipped. It then proceeded to drag its mooring through the anchorage, damaging a couple of boats on the way. Bad joss for sure! There were no big seas involved, for it is a well protected anchorage with little fetch, yet there it was, inverted. If it can happen under these conditions, could it not also happen at sea to a vessel with bare poles?

FWIW, there were several monohulls damaged at their moorings, but none actually knocked down as far as I heard. The tin roof was ripped from a shed on shore... flew through the air and dismasted a moored boat (timber mast, just launched after a refit) and then nearly sliced an automobile in half. Not a nice day on the water!

Please don't take this as cat-bashing! This was a well documented incident, and I'm trying to relate it to the realities of multihull sailing as discussed in this thread.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II back in Pittwater again.
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 15:55   #132
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 954
Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Without wanting to stir the pot excessively, we've heard of several cats being flipped on their moorings with no sail up and in flat water. One specific incident was in Little Oyster cove (off Kettering) in Tasmania. A couple of years ago there was a sudden and fierce storm which lead to the loss of several boats, and t he near loss of a brand new >million dollar 8 meter classic yacht (written up in Afloat). During that storm, which had gusts around 80 knots according to folks who sat through it, a ~35-40 ft catamaran on a mooring was flipped. It then proceeded to drag its mooring through the anchorage, damaging a couple of boats on the way. Bad joss for sure! There were no big seas involved, for it is a well protected anchorage with little fetch, yet there it was, inverted. If it can happen under these conditions, could it not also happen at sea to a vessel with bare poles?

FWIW, there were several monohulls damaged at their moorings, but none actually knocked down as far as I heard. The tin roof was ripped from a shed on shore... flew through the air and dismasted a moored boat (timber mast, just launched after a refit) and then nearly sliced an automobile in half. Not a nice day on the water!

Please don't take this as cat-bashing! This was a well documented incident, and I'm trying to relate it to the realities of multihull sailing as discussed in this thread.

Jim
I have seen and heard that as well. French cats but was in 150kn range.

80 kn seem a bit too easy and my have been one of these very light ones.

I have been up to 60 kn in flat water and my wife has not even noticed. So, I bet it was not lagoon flipping in 80 kn.

One of bad sides of very light cats. But then ma ynot be too hrd to right them as well.
__________________
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 16:05   #133
Registered User

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Cruising Indian Ocean / Red Sea - home is Zimbabwe
Boat: V45
Posts: 1,273
Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

I have never felt the need on any cat for an expected roll. Where did this come from? If I expected to roll I would not even bother sailing. We have side slipped down waves before as have others - not a nice feeling but we never felt like we were about to lift a hull, less alone anything worse.
What mast- keel bonding are you referring to? On a cat? Do you mean in the event of a lightning strike? That is a whole new ball game to the subject matter. Anyone sailing should ensure the integrity of their rigging.
Similarly, I doubt many mono-hull owners would go to sea expecting to sink, lose their mast or for the keel to fall off. These might happen but it is rare. Perhaps it was just a mis-phrase?
However, I think it is apparent from those that sail their cats offshore that we have confidence in our boats - even more so those with the appropriate gear on board - like a JSD. It should be appreciated that everything has a risk element associated - that is life. It is how we manage the risk that makes the differance. For me its a JSD, a storm jib (very rarely used) and a third reef for the main (even rarer to tie in). No, I dont go to my bunk - I choose to throw a pile of cushions onto the saloon floor and crash there so I am on immediate hand whilst my wife is taking a watch. The term on watch is a bit laughable as you cant see anything much in such conditions......... and if you could you are unlikely to be able to take meaningful action, and even less if streaming a drogue or parachute without resorting to a knife.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
ok, that is what i was expecting. Although hoping there is better answer.

mast/rigging integrity and mast-keel bonding becomes of critical importance as one should be prepared for multiple rolls in confused seas. Number of expected rolls decreasing by width of the boat.
__________________
Bulawayo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 16:15   #134
Registered User

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Cruising Indian Ocean / Red Sea - home is Zimbabwe
Boat: V45
Posts: 1,273
Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Its off subject but I could not bring myself to watch his daft antics - did he survive? I suppose he must off as he is still around.............


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Just ask Robert Redford. They are extremely vicious on dead calm days... and come out of nowhere.
__________________
Bulawayo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 16:20   #135
Registered User

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Cruising Indian Ocean / Red Sea - home is Zimbabwe
Boat: V45
Posts: 1,273
Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Do we know what sort of cat? Two tubes with a bit of a kite like trampoline or a fledged ocean cruiser? Its sometimes like talking about racing mono's loosing their bolt on super winged keels . Its not representative of a cruising mono.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Without wanting to stir the pot excessively, we've heard of several cats being flipped on their moorings with no sail up and in flat water. One specific incident was in Little Oyster cove (off Kettering) in Tasmania. A couple of years ago there was a sudden and fierce storm which lead to the loss of several boats, and t he near loss of a brand new >million dollar 8 meter classic yacht (written up in Afloat). During that storm, which had gusts around 80 knots according to folks who sat through it, a ~35-40 ft catamaran on a mooring was flipped. It then proceeded to drag its mooring through the anchorage, damaging a couple of boats on the way. Bad joss for sure! There were no big seas involved, for it is a well protected anchorage with little fetch, yet there it was, inverted. If it can happen under these conditions, could it not also happen at sea to a vessel with bare poles?

FWIW, there were several monohulls damaged at their moorings, but none actually knocked down as far as I heard. The tin roof was ripped from a shed on shore... flew through the air and dismasted a moored boat (timber mast, just launched after a refit) and then nearly sliced an automobile in half. Not a nice day on the water!

Please don't take this as cat-bashing! This was a well documented incident, and I'm trying to relate it to the realities of multihull sailing as discussed in this thread.

Jim
__________________

__________________
Bulawayo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
catamaran, wind

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ILL-winds for Indonesian cruisers Boracay Other 12 08-09-2007 19:26
August 25 - Well, that about winds it up. skipgundlach General Sailing Forum 1 26-08-2007 06:31
August 25 - Well, that about winds it up. skipgundlach General Sailing Forum 0 25-08-2007 20:04
Fair Winds.... ssullivan Monohull Sailboats 8 19-05-2006 16:30
Cyclone # 3 New Category 5 Monster Off of Australia - 'Glenda' - Winds of 160 mph CaptainK Pacific & South China Sea 1 28-03-2006 13:27


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:40.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.