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Old 20-11-2016, 10:55   #61
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

The load to due this is roughly the displacement. Can a anchor bridle and hardware take what 40,000 pounds on that boat?
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Old 20-11-2016, 11:16   #62
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

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Originally Posted by Ulstue View Post
Hi, bluemotion
on which german sailing web site did you read that?

Edit: ok, got it: SOS Seenot: Aktuelle Seenotfälle aus dem News-Ticker

Don't know if Leopard is the brand or the name of the boat in this notice. The fact that the boat floats bottom up does not necessarily mean that it is causative capsized.
Well; what other type of capsize are there?
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Old 20-11-2016, 11:22   #63
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

So I have a theory that if the leeward centre board was down and the boat was hit by a sudden increase in wind speed or a rogue wave then she's stand a good chance of tripping..... For years I sailed an Iroquois and the received wisdom was that you only ever sailed at night or in questionable conditions with the windward board down.

Antares of Ashston was knocked down in the Solent (South coast of England) in the dark on a delivery trip with inexperienced crew. Iroquois Cats aren't known for being especially prone to capsize but nothing is totally human proof.
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Old 20-11-2016, 11:41   #64
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

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Originally Posted by twohapence View Post
So I have a theory that if the leeward centre board was down and the boat was hit by a sudden increase in wind speed or a rogue wave then she's stand a good chance of tripping..... For years I sailed an Iroquois and the received wisdom was that you only ever sailed at night or in questionable conditions with the windward board down.

Antares of Ashston was knocked down in the Solent (South coast of England) in the dark on a delivery trip with inexperienced crew. Iroquois Cats aren't known for being especially prone to capsize but nothing is totally human proof.
Yes, a big gust of wind is well possible a rogue wave very unlikely. The sea was flat some hours later when the Helicopter arrived and the weather forecast was for good weather.
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Old 20-11-2016, 12:12   #65
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

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The load to due this is roughly the displacement. Can a anchor bridle and hardware take what 40,000 pounds on that boat?
Less than 30% of the displacement is necessary. Even 20% might be enough. The cat is not lifted off from the water, only the bows are pulled initially slightly up to help initiate the turn. Once the bows rise higher due to the turn the tow rope is closer to horizontal reducing at that point unnecessary lifting force automatically. The drag has plenty of leverage (initially by the rig height and then the hull length) and therefore the necessary force to turn is low.

If the bridle can't take that, it is under dimensioned for it's intended use.
Cats buoyancy is still supporting and that force is not at the transom, but still much closer to the center. In addition any water leaked inside will assist the process by flowing aft. Mast and rigging provide plenty of drag while in the water initiating the process while the speed is low, and big ships don't accelerate too quickly while easily having enough thrust to keep them moving. Towline loads only progress to the level necessary and reduce fast after the cat is back on it's "feet".
The only problem is that the cat might chance course despite of the bridle.
It is therefore critical that drag remains relatively close to centerline (no main & boom shifting it to side) and vessels be initially in correct orientation, that is pulling the boat transom first and to the correct direction.
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Old 20-11-2016, 12:17   #66
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

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Originally Posted by twohapence View Post
So I have a theory that if the leeward centre board was down and the boat was hit by a sudden increase in wind speed or a rogue wave then she's stand a good chance of tripping..... For years I sailed an Iroquois and the received wisdom was that you only ever sailed at night or in questionable conditions with the windward board down.

Antares of Ashston was knocked down in the Solent (South coast of England) in the dark on a delivery trip with inexperienced crew. Iroquois Cats aren't known for being especially prone to capsize but nothing is totally human proof.
Unfortunately sudden gusts tend to come from unexpected direction, therefore
"the windward board down" might actually be leeward board down during the gust.
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Old 20-11-2016, 12:19   #67
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

Sounds easier to just have a salvage crew with a crane lift both hulls to water level to first drain the seawater - then lift one hull and revert. Not sure I'd want a boat if the salvage crew flips it longitudinal by pulling. It isn't a static load as it flips and lands on itself again, probably do more damage to the boat.
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Old 20-11-2016, 12:19   #68
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

I think this would work but I bet you'd have a hard time convincing a ship's captain to give that a go. And afterward you'd in all likelihood need a tow also.
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Old 20-11-2016, 12:20   #69
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

The boats themselves are safe in my eyes.
Very very unlikely to capsize with little sail up.

I'd say under almost all circumstances it is a question of skippers pushing performance boats to much.

Performance boats tend to be used by people pushing the performance and leaning a tad less towards early reefing...

In very few other situations it is the result of very very adverse weather conditions like white squalls or huge steep seas dangerous also to other vessels.

I do not think it's a question of the boats safety.
Don't think the design needs to be blamed at all.

No-one stops (or should stop in my eyes) Porsche to sell high powered cars, it's the drivers responsibility to drive not to fast in adverse conditions.
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Old 20-11-2016, 12:47   #70
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

I hope the guy who said I ruined he Cruisers Forum for him and was a troll for commenting that a multihull is more stable upside down a few months ago reads this and apologizes in the same manner that Randy Marsh apologized to Jesse Jackson.
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Old 20-11-2016, 12:56   #71
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

The model testing done by Jim Brown suggested displacement loads were required. A boat with a bunch of water in it weighs a lot more than initial displacement.

Anyway, never heard of a cruising multi actually righted this way.

Oh, and people need to man up and stop demanding apologies. New rule.
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Old 20-11-2016, 15:04   #72
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

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Well; what other type of capsize are there?
Without wanting to say anything about this case, only in response to your question:

In the case of flooding a catamaran with a lot of weight at the stern (for example, motors / saildrives) and buoyancy in the forepeaks, the stern could sink and drift forward under water.

I think I can remember that there was a case - I believe near South Africa - where a catamaran was abandoned because of flooding. After a while, the boat was found bottom up, even though there was no heavy weather.
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Old 20-11-2016, 15:34   #73
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

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Originally Posted by Boatguy30 View Post
The model testing done by Jim Brown suggested displacement loads were required. A boat with a bunch of water in it weighs a lot more than initial displacement.

Anyway, never heard of a cruising multi actually righted this way.

Oh, and people need to man up and stop demanding apologies. New rule.
Unless your the new president elect.
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Old 20-11-2016, 15:44   #74
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

With the speak of turning the boat buttered side up you may want to watch this video of "COOL CHANGE" being flipped.



Video Here...

Pretty sure no Bulk Carrier is going to accomplish that.

The technique for re-flipping mutis has been perfected over the years. This is possibly the best method with the least damage.

My question is , for all the multihulls that have flipped, how many have come close. Ive seen two cruising catamarans on day sails teeter on the brink before recovering. Would the ratio be as high as 10:1 maybe? (brink teeter:capsize)

My first cat teeterd on the edge in a large puff on Funnel bay , in the Whitsundays. Whilst I've intentionally flown a hull in my current cruiser I've never been close to the edge

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Old 20-11-2016, 15:50   #75
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
The boats themselves are safe in my eyes.
Very very unlikely to capsize with little sail up.

I'd say under almost all circumstances it is a question of skippers pushing performance boats to much.

Performance boats tend to be used by people pushing the performance and leaning a tad less towards early reefing...

In very few other situations it is the result of very very adverse weather conditions like white squalls or huge steep seas dangerous also to other vessels.

I do not think it's a question of the boats safety.
Don't think the design needs to be blamed at all.

No-one stops (or should stop in my eyes) Porsche to sell high powered cars, it's the drivers responsibility to drive not to fast in adverse conditions.
There will always be idiots that gloat when a catamaran capsizes and use it to confirm their bias but the reality is the quoted post here by Franziska is right on the money.

If you're going to buy the latest 1299 Ducati Superlegerra you better know that the throttle goes both ways. Some people get that, some people don't. If you don't, don't buy one

I'd love one of these myself.

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