Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

[jbinbi]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

No, no, no, no. First, most cats in this size range are not delivered on their bottoms anymore. Even Leopard which is famous for it, now uses ships to deliver boats. But anyway, the fact that a cat survives one ocean crossing should not be taken for proof that it will survive anything the ocean can throw at it. That being said, I think most production boats these days are robust enough for a low latitude circumnavigation. But seaworthiness contemplates more than just staying in one piece when the going gets rough. It also includes the ability to sail out of harms way, handling rough seas in a way that does not absolutely knacker the crew, sufficient handholds, rounded corners, fiddles, etc. and, in the case of cats, enough bridgedeck clearance not to make the occupants seem feel like peas in a whistle. Too many new cats fail on these counts.

And, how can you tell how well a boat will sail by looking at it? If you can't do this to a degree, you need to go back to school on cats. Narrow hulls, large rigs, big tramps, daggerboards, high aspect rudders, and on and on. The last place to get info on this is on this forum, as you will hear here from owners of all designs that their cats sail at 1.5x wind speed and never pound.

But if it doesn't matter to you, its no foul. Personally, I think sailors should take advantage of the performance that the cat platform makes available, and its for a small sacrifice in space and stuff. But to each his own and if you are out there, then your a brother of mine.

Potayto, potahto.

Seaworthiness means different things to different people. What is critical to a circumnavigator might not be so to a coastal cruiser and what is critical to a coastal cruiser might not be so to a day sailor.

Just saying that lots of 'production' cats are seaworthy enough for many people including those who have circumnavigated in them. So I understand why looking at the interior at a boat show brings lots more discussion than sailing performance when you can't really tell by looking. I saw the new Bali 40 and didn't think it would sail great, boom up really high lots of windage, etc, but read a review of how it points at 40 deg and does 8kts easy. So my looking at it would be conjecture, however it had a standup refrig freezer which I thought was fantastic.

And having purchased a new boat last year, at least my lagoon dealer told me that a large % are sailed over, maybe the really big ones aren't as if you are spending 750k, maybe you don't mind the 50k of freight? Or maybe it is just the opposite, you have used up all your money, and need the 50k!

After sailing monos for 50 years, I love my cat. But it is a personal thing, I have had other sailors on board that said, 'you call this sailing'?

[MarkJ]

If i was buying a new cat i wouldnt want some delivery crew doing 6,500 nms in my new home.
If you want me to buy your product Stick it on a ship and let me open my brand new present i just paid for.

[jbinbi]

It's about 35k to get you cat delivered on a ship for about the 40' ones, the 50' ones are about 50k.

France to US is about 3k mi, usually done in a few stops.

[Sail power sail]

I would be careful relying on the magazine reviews of performance. They can be optimistic

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[boneboy]

No, no, no, no. First, most cats in this size range are not delivered on their bottoms anymore. Even Leopard which is famous for it, now uses ships to deliver boats




Voyage still sails every boat over....no shipping

[rallyman1122]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

No, no, no, no. First, most cats in this size range are not delivered on their bottoms anymore. Even Leopard which is famous for it, now uses ships to deliver boats.

Most Leopards delivered to the charter companies are delivered on their bottoms. Charter companies are much too cheap to pay for freight delivery

[Prerequisite]

Originally Posted by Seaadventurers

We too liked this decking as it was very soft on our feet. The salesman said it was just added by the owner. We mentioned it to the Nautitech people and they said to be careful as it can get very hot in the sun since it is a darker color.

The soft decking on the Outremer was SeaDek. We have it on our Nautique ski boat and we love it. We have the same color the Outremer had at the boat show and it has never gotten hot under foot- even in Florida summers. I can't speak to the other colors though.

We loved the Outremer 51 and the Nautitech 46. Different price ranges, but the Outremer 49 used market is starting to emerge and there won't be any (or at least many) used Nautitech Open 46s in the market for a while. My wife and I both agreed the flybridge does not interest us at all though so we'd go with the dual helms. We also went on the FP, Lagoons, and Leopards and we both had the same opinions- very nice but they aren't the boats for us. They certainly all looked more comfortable than our Cape Dory 33 though!

[Cat White House]

How do you tell how a boat sails by looking at it at a Boat Show? You can’t. However, keep in mind that there are few serious performance-handling complaints about production Cats launched in the last 5 years.

Most, if not all of the Cruising Cats mentioned in this thread are bluewater seaworthy. But, I wouldn’t take any of them into the roaring Southern Ocean in the winter.

Most of the complaints revolve around helm visibility and line-winch placement.

I agree with SVNeko and Lambretta … “livability” & “almost like buying a house” sum-up the major considerations.

Almost every aspect of boat design is a trade-off. Production-Cruising Cat designers lean toward livability, handling, and form rather than function. A few design trends …

>Increasing hull volume by widening the hulls towards the centerline without increasing the width of the vessel. The sacrifice: speed & performance … but who really cares.

>Moving and enlarging the main saloon forward increasing saloon volume. The sacrifice: The mast is also moved forward sacrificing speed & performance … but who really cares. (Lagoon received allot of criticism for moving the L-52’s mast back into the central part of the cabin sacrificing livability for performance. The mast-in-the-middle makes saloon design tough.)

>Putting flying bridges and decks atop the main saloon. The sacrifice: The boom must be moved higher above the waterline creating a dilemma: either shrink mainsail square footage, or increase the height of the mast above the waterline. For the European market, mast height was increased requiring stronger rigging. For the US market, some offered 64 ft. Intercostal Waterway friendly masts decreasing performance.

>Installing home creature comforts adding significant weight to vessels. The sacrifice: performance … but who cares.

In no particular order, a few of the things I look for in cruising cats includes:

>Engines located in a separate compartment and not under an aft bunk. This virtually eliminates fuel smell and carbon monoxide in the cabins.

>Dinghy friendly stairs for easy and safe tender access.

>Good saloon visibility & headroom. Larger heads-showers. Easy bunk accessibility.

> Helm & control-winch placement. For visibility, I prefer flying bridges and decks atop the main saloon with the helm on the forward portion of the deck. Flying bridge-decks are beginning to be found on cats under 50ft. I think what I call “pop-up” helms are not well placed and not very social. One of my favorite builders has added flying bridges and decks without raising the boom much limiting the livability of the deck. Being hit in the head even by a sailing dinghy can be fatal. Duel aft deck and aft hull helms have limited visibility, increase weather exposure and are usually too far from winch-line controls.

PS I sailed my L500 accross in a January. It still cost $25K in crew airfare, food, fuel and a hired Captain. Would do it again.

>Clean decks with as few trip-me hazards as practical. Easy system access. Power winches including power dinghy davits.

[jbinbi]

Excellent post!

Of course of that 25k, how much was spent trucking the boat from the coast to Cincinnati;-) Unless there is another one I don't know about...

[Leszczynski]

Hello all....I am a new member here. *I figured this related to the new boat show and I wanted to get some traffic on this. *Thanks ahead for help on this.

BLUF:
MY question to you is...do any of you have experience with making a charter agreement for a 5-6 year period? Is the boat worthless or in need of major upgrades/refit in order to make it a seaworthy live aboard?


My wife and I recently returned from our first visit to the boat show with renewed dreams of living aboard. *
The dream / plan, is to buy a cat (we like the new Lagoon 42), and live simpler by moving our family aboard and making our way slowly around the world.
We have a flexible 5 to 6 year plan laid out to take me to retirement while saving for our cat.

This was also our first encounter with charter companies. *
After discussing our 5-6 plan with all of them they all said “why don’t you buy a boat and put it into charter”

The deal they briefed ranged from 20% down with guaranteed 9% income for 5 years to the one we are interested in, 35% down with a balloon 25% payment at the end of 5 years, no income. *

I basically buy the boat for 60% of the initial cost. The charter company buys the rest (40%).

For this they get to charter my boat out, but are also paying for ALL expenses. I get to use the boat, 8 weeks a year.

After the agreed period...normally 5-6 years. The boat is mine to keep, for no extra costs.

MY question to you is...does any of you have experience with making a charter agreement for a 5-6 year period? Is the boat worthless or in need of major upgrades/refit in order to make it a seaworthy live aboard?

As you probably figured out, my plan is not to sell the boat afterwards. But use it as much as possible, which will hopefully be full time for a ~5 year period.

This Charter solution seems perfect for me right now. I get a boat for 60% ~ $300k +/-, I get to use it 8 weeks a year and the agreement I enter with the given charter company will end when I am ready to jump on the boat fulltime.

Is this a bad deal? Anyone out there with experience here.....?
To talk numbers I have a quote from a company at 570k for a charter ready lagoon 42 2017.
At the show I think they said I could get a cruise ready cat for around 460K so I have to look at the delta there a bit more. *Anyway the 60% of $570k (342k) or of the $460k (276k) bracket my budget for buying a cruising cat. *
I have not seen a 5 year old cruising cat for sale for less than 342k, so it seems like the charter program is a good deal.
Am I looking at this incorrectly, should I just save my 35% down and see what I can afford in 5 years?

Thanks again for any help.

[hsi88]

Originally Posted by Steve_C

I was very disappointed in the Leopards, The headroom was just too low in all of the models. I am 6'4" and it was just unacceptable.

I know guys from Texas probably drive down the road with their hats on, but it sure makes it easier to get around a boat without a cowboy hat.

[Dave852]

$570 for a 42' cat? I say they are starting at an inflated price. Anyway figure to spend at least $100 in today's dollars in 5 years to get it ready for you to cruise on. Water maker, solar panels, new sails etc...
Always keep in mind the value of money, what could you do with that 35%?



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[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Leszczynski.

[Privleoplag]

Originally Posted by Dave852

$570 for a 42' cat? I say they are starting at an inflated price. Anyway figure to spend at least $100 in today's dollars in 5 years to get it ready for you to cruise on. Water maker, solar panels, new sails etc...
Always keep in mind the value of money, what could you do with that 35%?
Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

A lot of folks don't realize that a lot of, if not all of, the newer charter cats come with solar, some with a watermaker, generators, air conditioning, electric heads, led, etc, etc,. If the sails are shot, or anything else for that matter, the company may put new ones on.. it all depends on the phase out contract and how involved you might be with that. If your phase out goes well and your charter company sticks to the contract, you'll sail away in a boat that needs little to nothing in 5 years.

[Leszczynski]

Thanks for your replies guys.

I have attached one quote from the catamaran company. It does not seem to include an option for solar panels. And it seems there are some options not selected that I may want to add. I wonder if those are easily added later or if it's better to add options on initial purchase?

The phase out inspection is key I will make sure to examine that contract carefully.

So let's assume I do the charter contract and get a boat basically ready for live aboard cruising after the 5 year contract. It seems that for the 60% (340k) I will have paid, I won't be able to get a 5 year old cruising cat.

Most cats in that price range are 7-9 years old.