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Old 12-08-2009, 13:16   #106
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Cold molded has nothing to do with a connection to a prior age. It's about strength, weight, and speed.........i2f
Mebbe he'll learn somethin'
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Old 12-08-2009, 14:21   #107
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Mebbe he'll learn somethin'
How did you fail to read where I wrote:
"OK, to be fair, cold molding is a reasonably good way to build a boat."
Try being fair back. It feels good.

Cold molding is also an example of exactly what I am talking about, wood appearance and wood structure are orthogonal in modern boatbuilding, the only connection being emotional. Cold molded boats are always painted externally since epoxy degrades under UV, and as far as I can tell they are generally painted internally because making cold molded lamination look good adds a lot of labor and material cost. i2f, is that a fair characterization?

Keep in mind, balsa core fiberglass is just as much a wooden boat as cold molded cedar. Nobody seems to get all sentimental about varnished end-grain balsa interiors though.

Martin
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Old 12-08-2009, 14:49   #108
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How did you fail to read where I wrote:
"OK, to be fair, cold molding is a reasonably good way to build a boat."
Try being fair back. It feels good.

Cold molding is also an example of exactly what I am talking about, wood appearance and wood structure are orthogonal in modern boatbuilding, the only connection being emotional. Cold molded boats are always painted externally since epoxy degrades under UV, and as far as I can tell they are generally painted internally because making cold molded lamination look good adds a lot of labor and material cost. i2f, is that a fair characterization?

Keep in mind, balsa core fiberglass is just as much a wooden boat as cold molded cedar. Nobody seems to get all sentimental about varnished end-grain balsa interiors though.

Martin
If crosslinking is a concern, since it occurs in any resin system, then you should think about plank on frame (which doesn't have that issue). The point being that any material or construction technique has advantages and disadvantages- it just pays not to be didactic. If titanium honeycomed carbon fiber is your thing, Great. If mahogany on oak is your thing that's great too. Each can make a good boat.
FWIW, the reasons behind our choosing our particular boat were driven by hull strength and form- pretty pragmatic for a wooden boat owner.
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Old 12-08-2009, 14:59   #109
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I had to look up orthogonal. I thought maybe you're a dentist? It says perpendicular, or a vector, so I am lost.

I thought 2 reasons for going cold molded was a quicker build, and less cost? Then again I am just a mufflerman, and stuck with a 2 syllabal way ov talkn.Oh yeah, if it's mahogany does that make a difference?.....i2f
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Old 12-08-2009, 15:01   #110
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I had to look up orthogonal. I thought maybe you're a dentist? It says perpendicular, or a vector, so I am lost.

I thought 2 reasons for going cold molded was a quicker build, and less cost? Then again I am just a mufflerman, and stuck with a 2 syllabal way ov talkn.Oh yeah, if it's mahogany does that make a difference?.....i2f
Tangential or unrelated may be a better fit. Pretty boat, i2f.
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Old 12-08-2009, 15:14   #111
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Thanks for the compliment. Let me know when you have any additions to your gallery. I love to see yours, now that you've seen mine....boat that is........i2f
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Old 12-08-2009, 15:23   #112
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Here you go:

Hi - Great Lakes Cruisers, New to Forum

I'll have to load more pics up and start an album.
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Old 12-08-2009, 15:30   #113
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I love my cat, but when I see boats like yours. I just get plain weak in the knees, and my heart rate goes way up....GORGEOUS.......i2f
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Old 12-08-2009, 15:33   #114
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Worth the effort.
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Old 12-08-2009, 15:33   #115
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Tangential or unrelated may be a better fit.
Unrelated is more or less what I mean. Orthogonal means that two characteristics are independent and do not modify each other... "statistically independent" says Mirriam-Webster... without implying that one is more important than the other. I wanted to be really precise because anything less and the wording gets challenged rather than the ideas.

Martin
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Old 12-08-2009, 15:56   #116
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If crosslinking is a concern, since it occurs in any resin system, then you should think about plank on frame (which doesn't have that issue).
Can you explain what you mean by crosslinking being a concern? All resins are crosslinked and that's a good thing, that is what makes them strong. Epoxy is stronger than polyester in part because it is more extensively crosslinked. Epoxy is very UV sensitive, polyester and vinylester less so. UV is not a problem for composite boats, including cold-molded wood, because you gelcoat and/or paint them.

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The point being that any material or construction technique has advantages and disadvantages- it just pays not to be didactic.
In my opinion, that kind of everyone's-a-winner attitude has no place in building a structure to withstand oceans and protect lives within budgetary constraints. While different structures have different strenghts, some are just no longer competitive for building new cruising sailboats. For example, wooden plank-on-frame is utterly obsolete, unless labor costs are near zero (for both building and maintainance). This is not just a matter of taste, it's an objective matter that was decided by marine engineers years ago and reflected in the boats that are built by the overwhelming majority of professionals today.

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Old 12-08-2009, 16:07   #117
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Can you explain what you mean by crosslinking being a concern? All resins are crosslinked and that's a good thing, that is what makes them strong. Epoxy is stronger than polyester in part because it is more extensively crosslinked. Epoxy is very UV sensitive, polyester and vinylester less so. UV is not a problem for composite boats, including cold-molded wood, because you gelcoat and/or paint them.

In my opinion, that kind of everyone's-a-winner attitude has no place in building a structure to withstand oceans and protect lives within budgetary constraints. While different structures have different strenghts, some are just no longer competitive for building new cruising sailboats. For example, wooden plank-on-frame is utterly obsolete, unless labor costs are near zero (for both building and maintainance). This is not just a matter of taste, it's an objective matter that was decided by marine engineers years ago and reflected in the boats that are built by the overwhelming majority of professionals today.

Martin
They're all partially crosslinked. Brittleness occurs when UV shortens the chain length. That's the common use of the term crosslinked.

There you go being didactic again- "plank on frame is utterly obsolete". If a hull can take torque x and heave y and roll z what difference does the material have in those calcualtions? Please feel free to name these "marine engineers" that "decided long ago" "objectively" etc.
Look, the real reason that FRP is so popular is that it's easy to make a whole lot of the same hull. There are other advantages regarding maintenance, but it's not a perfect material., None really are.

If your primary concern is cost, then try cement.
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Old 12-08-2009, 16:54   #118
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If a hull can take torque x and heave y and roll z what difference does the material have in those calcualtions?
Weight, cost, maintenance.

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Please feel free to name these "marine engineers" that "decided long ago" "objectively" etc.
Name one that hasn't: a single new (last decade) offshore-capable cruising yacht design that was penned by professional designers for professional builders in wooden plank-on-frame construction. And I mean an actual new design not something that copies an older design or style for marketing reasons.

I can come up with a few boats (e.g. Baba, Hans Christian) that were built in fiberglass with faux plank lines to create the appearance of wood -- even back in the '80s designers and builders were that desperate to avoid plank-on-frame construction.

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If your primary concern is cost, then try cement.
Cost is almost always a primary concern.

As far as I can tell, cement is only really low-cost if you ignore some of the costs.

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Old 12-08-2009, 16:59   #119
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BTW I didn't say that plank-on-frame boats are obsolete. I said that plank-on-frame is an obsolete method for constructing new boats. Existing boats reflect the economics of the time they were built -- labor costs, material costs, technology -- and the depreciation that has occured since. Materials that have no place in new boats can still make a lot of sense as used boats, as long as they are priced to reflect that.

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Old 12-08-2009, 18:10   #120
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i absolutely LOVE my formosa and the teakwood interior--even at 80 dollars/board foot--is the most wonderful place on this earth---i donot like the white sterility of the hospital looking sterile white molded uglies i have seen--even my ericson isnt molded plastic inside--has vinyl softness with teakwood trims--is very sweet--the teak softens the harshness of the hospital sterile white ugly that some folks enjoy --i cannot abide it--i like hand rubbed oil in my wood and i dislike varnish and cetol and the rest of the gotta sand it kinds of finishes--i enjoy the time --isnt much the way i oil mine--and i wish my formosa still had the teak decks--teak decks are the best known anti skid ----i dislike the junk nonskids that man makes-they are actually dangerous and slidey--is a sad state when the beauty is not welcome or a part of the life----i am glad i donot have to sail with anyone who isnt a teak freak....LOL....if it looks like it should be sunk to clean, then maybe it should LOL----TO EACH HIS OWN!!!!. thank the sea gods for WOOOOD!!!!-- and for fiberglass hulls----
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