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Old 29-06-2016, 09:50   #61
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Re: Wood blue water boat opinions, would you buy one

Please understand that I'm not being argumentative. I think you are "playing it so close to the vest" that no-one can give you the simple answer you seek. That's because there IS no simple answer, and, trying to help, we've ridden wildly off in all directions.

What your candidate boat is built of will depend to a large degree on WHERE she was built. If she was built in the eastern US the frames are likely to be sawn white oak and the planking long leaf pine unless she was built to a very high and expensive standard, in which case she might have "mahogany" planing. If she was built in BC she's likely to be yellow cedar planking on sawn Douglas fir frames. The same caveat applies. If she was built in Denmark, she's likely to be pine planking on white oak frames. All of these combos work just fine. The choices have always depended - amazingly - on materials availability, cost and owner's budget.

As for fastenings there are also choices, all with pros and cons: manganese bronze, "gun metal", wrought iron and even "HDG" (Hot Dip Galvanized mild steel). The pros and cons depend on what species of wood the fastening has to work with, and on the "design life" of the vessel. The fastenings can be screws, drifts or bolts all depending on the job they have to do and on the intended lifespan of the vessel.

All ships are born to die, and as one of our members puts it: "Wooden boats are on life support from the moment they are launched. Fiberglass boats have to be ASSASSINATED!"

As for your emphatic statement that there is "no rot", you mean, I'm sure, that there is no rot THAT YOU HAVE FOUND. Have you been in the bilge and examined the heels of the frames where they are notched into the keelson? Have you been up under the breast-hooks in the transom corners? Have you probed for soft spots with an awl? Why would an owner let you do that, when that is a sure way to open an avenue of ingress for the dreaded fungus that causes dry rot - which thrives, contrary to its name, only where there is a sustainedly moist environment?

Ann spoke of "iron sickness". Very common where ferrous fastenings have been used. So what ARE the fastenings, particularly of the garboards since that is the part of the planking that is most likely to spring under the normal sailing stresses in a carvel planked hull?

Supposing the devil rides and you spring a garboard while underway. Would your skills and your equipment be adequate to bring her to harbour? Can you budget handle the cost of replacing a garboard? It is MOST unlikely that you could do that work yourself.

All in all I think you are asking the wrong question. IMO the question you need to ask yourself is three-fold: 1) is the boat adequate for my present purposes? 2) am I a competent enuff sailor that I can handle her so she will be a source of pleasure rather than a source of trials and 3) Do I have sufficient financial strength that I could walk away from her without a second thought.

IMO (which is what it is -just and opinion) unless you can answer all three questions with a resounding "YES!", let her be. Do what I do. Dream and read about wooden boats, go for an occasional sail in one when opportunity affords. But own a frozen snot boat :-)!

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Old 29-06-2016, 11:51   #62
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Re: Wood blue water boat opinions, would you buy one

It would be most helpful IF you had stated your general geographical location? Moving boats from one part of the world to the other can be logistically difficult and expensive. So not much point in making a recommendation in the Pacific Northwest IF you are no where near it?
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Old 29-06-2016, 11:58   #63
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Re: Wood blue water boat opinions, would you buy one

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Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
And then there is Schooner Chandlery who restored an old wood schooner and have sailed it up to Alaska. Their boat looks very seaworthy and they have the technical knowhow to restore it and maintain it, in an admirable fashion. Look for their website to see the results. https://schoonerchandlery.com
Steady Hand -- I just ran across this, the 2nd post in the very long thread here on blue water wooden boats. Thanks for the nice words.

We sail an 85 year old carvel planked wooden boat. With intention of bluewater sailing we limited our search to boats that were bluewater capable by design and were either very well maintained or could be rebuilt and maintained in a condition safe to bluewater sailing. Whilst the issues are a bit different with strip planked and cold moulded boats, we were intent upon a traditionally carvel planked vessel that would be easy for us to personally repair and maintain. So we focused on the issues of a carvel planked boat. My opinion is sure, I'd buy one. We did buy one. Would I advise someone else to do so? Not if the only reason they've come to look at wood boats is they've found an inexpensive one. If cost is the primary concern, stick with fiberglass, IMO. If there's more to the selection process than cost, sure, do consider a carvel planked wood boat. It might suite your personality.

Our sailing goals were centered around the experience/aesthetic of sailing a pre-WWII cruising boat and well, there you go, if it's pre-WWII and it's still around it's likely to be wood You can listen to the podcast where I ramble on and talk a bit about our boat, rebuilding and sailing it here (see the link to Sailfeed of the podcast.)

We knew whatever pre-WWII vessel we purchased, it was likely to have been rebuilt more than once or need extensive rebuild. We only became fully aware, after purchase of our particular wood boat, that the 99% majority of carvel planked boats suited to cruising (e.g. they're not day sailors or racers) are only built for a 30 year life of use in the first place and if one extends that life it is due to the boat not being used, being used in very mild conditions, or the ongoing maintenance being performed with care and forethought to keeping the boat sailing for much more than 30 years. If someone is selling a 30 year old carvel planked wooden boat, it may well be at a point where it requires a lot of work. This is a very individual matter to the particular boat though.

When we purchased our 1931 boat in 2006 we knew that our particular boat was pretty much...shot...and would require extensive rebuild. We were up for that and indeed the project of rebuilding our schooner was a great experience in and of itself.

Our boat was built for ocean conditions and built for cruising so she generally has sufficient stowage and is very seaworthy. We did modify the cockpit sole to bring it up (it was barely 13" above the waterline, it is now 18" above it) and made a few other minor mods to improve the boat's blue water capabilities. It's a great blue water boat. Besides us, throughout her life many other families have sailed her -- she's extensively cruised in the US northeast, the Atlantic provinces of Canada, was a charter boat in the Caribbean, sailed the South Pacific, extensively along the west coast of North America from AK to Central America, has made a few trips to HI including two TransPac races and just keeps on going. Her spars and masts are original, her hull refastened once at about 40 years of age and rebuilt (by us) recently to hopefully keep her going for many more years to come.

She would be pretty low maintenance (day to day) if I didn't insist on having so much varnish and I keep it uncovered so I can enjoy looking at it.

Loads of people have opinions. Only you know what will work for your situation.

We have pics and info about our boat on a page in the Schooner Chandlery here and we discuss a lot about the boat and her rebuild in older posts on our blog here. Pics of caulking the hull, for example here in the blog post. The sailfeed pic below is from this post here.

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Old 29-06-2016, 21:19   #64
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Re: Wood blue water boat opinions, would you buy one

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Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Please understand that I'm not being argumentative. I think you are "playing it so close to the vest" that no-one can give you the simple answer you seek. That's because there IS no simple answer, and, trying to help, we've ridden wildly off in all directions.

What your candidate boat is built of will depend to a large degree on WHERE she was built. If she was built in the eastern US the frames are likely to be sawn white oak and the planking long leaf pine unless she was built to a very high and expensive standard, in which case she might have "mahogany" planing. If she was built in BC she's likely to be yellow cedar planking on sawn Douglas fir frames. The same caveat applies. If she was built in Denmark, she's likely to be pine planking on white oak frames. All of these combos work just fine. The choices have always depended - amazingly - on materials availability, cost and owner's budget.

As for fastenings there are also choices, all with pros and cons: manganese bronze, "gun metal", wrought iron and even "HDG" (Hot Dip Galvanized mild steel). The pros and cons depend on what species of wood the fastening has to work with, and on the "design life" of the vessel. The fastenings can be screws, drifts or bolts all depending on the job they have to do and on the intended lifespan of the vessel.

All ships are born to die, and as one of our members puts it: "Wooden boats are on life support from the moment they are launched. Fiberglass boats have to be ASSASSINATED!"

As for your emphatic statement that there is "no rot", you mean, I'm sure, that there is no rot THAT YOU HAVE FOUND. Have you been in the bilge and examined the heels of the frames where they are notched into the keelson? Have you been up under the breast-hooks in the transom corners? Have you probed for soft spots with an awl? Why would an owner let you do that, when that is a sure way to open an avenue of ingress for the dreaded fungus that causes dry rot - which thrives, contrary to its name, only where there is a sustainedly moist environment?

Ann spoke of "iron sickness". Very common where ferrous fastenings have been used. So what ARE the fastenings, particularly of the garboards since that is the part of the planking that is most likely to spring under the normal sailing stresses in a carvel planked hull?

Supposing the devil rides and you spring a garboard while underway. Would your skills and your equipment be adequate to bring her to harbour? Can you budget handle the cost of replacing a garboard? It is MOST unlikely that you could do that work yourself.

All in all I think you are asking the wrong question. IMO the question you need to ask yourself is three-fold: 1) is the boat adequate for my present purposes? 2) am I a competent enuff sailor that I can handle her so she will be a source of pleasure rather than a source of trials and 3) Do I have sufficient financial strength that I could walk away from her without a second thought.

IMO (which is what it is -just and opinion) unless you can answer all three questions with a resounding "YES!", let her be. Do what I do. Dream and read about wooden boats, go for an occasional sail in one when opportunity affords. But own a frozen snot boat :-)!

TrentePieds
I know that if I want this boat it's mine, so this what it is, it was built in New Zealand in 1946- 47, The hull and deck are Kauri, it's a double ended Ketch, the mast's are solid Fir, can't seem to copy photos of it right now, but I think soon, Yes to 1-2-3, I'm going to try and contact Bob Perry about this and see what He might be able to tell me, even though it's yes to #3, I don't think that walking away would be necessary at all, owner says it weighs 34k but owner doesn't know the weight of the ballast, it's probably a lot, it's not ready to go, I said earlier that I thought maybe 25 to 30k but probably 35, depending on how many bells and whistles you want, the beam is 12' and the draft is 6', 35' on deck, 44 with the bowsprit, the fasteners are copper,
The reason I was asking about the type of wood was I don't know what Kauri is, googled it, but the only thing that came up was ancient kauri, was hoping someone would mention it and comment on it as a building material, as far as I know everything that I've said about this boat is true, been trying to find out who designed this thing, looks like a Westsail 32 on steroids, in my opinion this boat needs to be saved, just not sure if I'm the right person to save it, that doubt in itself may make me unqualified to be the one, I'm torn about it, I've never seen a wood sailboat this old that looks like this, maybe some of you have, will try to get some pics up, oh, the name of the boat before the owner changed it was Icebreaker
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Old 29-06-2016, 21:49   #65
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Re: Wood blue water boat opinions, would you buy one

I'm sure that a Kiwi will pipe up, but in general, Kauri is New Zealand's premier boat building timber, kinda similar to Huon Pine in Tasmania. Certainly not a thing to put you off buying her.

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Old 29-06-2016, 21:59   #66
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Re: Wood blue water boat opinions, would you buy one

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I'm sure that a Kiwi will pipe up, but in general, Kauri is New Zealand's premier boat building timber, kinda similar to Huon Pine in Tasmania. Certainly not a thing to put you off buying her.

Jim
Thanks Jim, I would very much like to hear from a Kiwi that knows about this wood, especially from the time period that this boat was made
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Old 29-06-2016, 23:51   #67
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Re: Wood blue water boat opinions, would you buy one

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Thanks Jim, I would very much like to hear from a Kiwi that knows about this wood, especially from the time period that this boat was made

You mention copper fasteners. So is she copper riveted ? That would be a very nice thing.


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Old 29-06-2016, 23:55   #68
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Re: Wood blue water boat opinions, would you buy one

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You mention copper fasteners. So is she copper riveted ? That would be a very nice thing.


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Old 30-06-2016, 00:49   #69
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Re: Wood blue water boat opinions, would you buy one

Hi,
I have owned a wooden version of the Southern Cross 31, designed by Tom Gillmer for 20 years. The wooden hull has never been a problem. There is a lot of work involved in varnishing all the exterior teak, but that is another story.
Good luck.

Cheers, Eric Schlesinger
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Old 30-06-2016, 03:21   #70
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Re: Wood blue water boat opinions, would you buy one

an insight into the maintenance-intensity a wooden boat can require:
The Swiss owner of a lovely 32' Buchanan design, traditionally built wooden boat when asked if they had books to swap (in those days the cruisers on the coconut-milkrun used to swap books [to read during nightwatches, etc.]) answered, totally perplexed in his inimitable swiss accent:
"Books??? We don't have books, there is no time to read, we have a wooden boat!"
(this was in Tonga 90' & we had a 5-months-baby on board, & even we had -a little- time to read...)
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Old 30-06-2016, 03:43   #71
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Re: Wood blue water boat opinions, would you buy one

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I canít speak to Kauri directly as say, a Shipwright. But all of the Kiwi sailors I know are big fans of it. The catch would be where on a boat is it best used. Though itís very popular with DIY guys there, for boats. Particularly for skinning cold molded ones. When itís available in quantity that is.
As of last check, years back, it wasn't possible to find much of it outside of New Zealand. As it's fairly scarce any more, & mostly itís non-exportable.

Good qualities; rot resistance, straight clear grain, low density, good physical properties (strength), easy to work with. Oh, & it's pretty, when finished clear, too. Kauri | The Wood Database - Lumber Identification (Softwoods)

You'll find a fair bit of info on Kauri via a Bing.com search, under "Kauri wood", & "Kauri wood for boats". And Googling it from a different computer may yield more results. "Thanks" to Google's so called, search "tuning" per user browsing history function.

Kauri (wood) hulls - Cruising Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums
Kauri Wood Boat 1955
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass...atbuilding.pdf
Also, have you been over on Wooden Boat Forums much? As obviously, they know a good bit about what you're asking.

As to Cedar. There are plenty of varieties which are outstanding for boats. Given the proper application. And you can find many, many species with excellent rot resistance, relatively speaking. As well as having good mechanical properties, & low density. The only catch being, the price (of some flavors).

Cedars are used in many boats built in the Pacific NW. Like the Cape George cutters, for example. Which are built by some world renowned craftsmen (nice guys too).
Ditto on it's use in much more modern & high tech boats too, like Rage, built by Steve Rander (formerly) the owner of Schooner Creek Boatworks in Portland. She's a super fast, very durable (Sic) racer-cruiser. As are her cousins.

In a pinch, for info, pricing, & sourcing, look up Edensaw Woods - Quality Marine Plywood & Lumber Supply in Port Townsend, WA. Plus Frost Hardwoods in San Diego, CA (Miramar, where Top Gun used to be). And you can kick around on Online Materials Information Resource - MatWeb for some of the physical properties. As well as the wood data base, etc.
Also, the Pardeyís have a good, abridged page in one of their books, covering what woods work well, & where, specifically.


I don't know if it's been mentioned already or not. But some guys will pull the planks on a boat, & spline them all together, with or without glue (usually with), for a more monocoque structure.
And on some boats, much life can be added to them by sheathing the hulls with wooden skins, a Ďla cold molding. It seals things, as well as adding some buoyancy to offset the additional weight.
Option #3 is a bit tricky, but the hull can be glassed on some boats. Though, yes, with most of these, she's becoming less of a traditional wooden boat per say. But they are options in some cases.

Regardless, if you know that the boat has issues, realize that you'll be doing mucho refitting, & very little sailing for quite a while. And not to be a downer, but read this piece by Nigel Calder A Refit Reality Check | Cruising World

And good luck!



PS: Great thread everyone. Thanks! I've learned a good bit.

The boat doesn't have any wood, rot issues, from what I've been able to gather, from the owner and elsewhere, is that, the type of Kauri that was available in New Zealand at the time this boat was built, 1946-1947, is no longer available, or is in very short supply in New Zealand, there is suppose to be another type, outside of NZ, but it's not the same and I don't know what the differences are, look, I'm going to try and get someone that knows his stuff about wood sailboats and hopefully the Kauri wood of this era in New Zealand, to take a close look at this one, I know, good luck, I've already said that I think passing this one up would be a mistake, and am real close to pulling the trigger, BUT, I want to be absolutely sure this is the right thing to do, my gut tells me it is, from all indications, all this boat needs is outfitting, new sails, and possibly, standing and running rigging, if I don't get to fancy, might have a total of 55 to 60k in it. I've have some time to do a critical analyses, if there are any Kiwi's out looking at this, and can share some knowledge based on the information, however limited, in this thread, I would really appreciate it
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Old 30-06-2016, 03:52   #72
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Re: Wood blue water boat opinions, would you buy one

My apoligies for yanking this post. I didn't know if it addressed things directly enough or not, so it got binned. Below is version 2.0.

Note: the other type of Kauri, from what I gather (& is in the SA Forums linked post) is Fijian Kauri. Which evidently, doesn't have the same physical properties as the original Kiwi stuff. But it's grown/farmed at several locations in the Pacific.


I can’t speak to Kauri directly as say, a Shipwright. But all of the Kiwi sailors I know are big fans of it. The catch would be where on a boat is it best used, that & finding it in quantity.
As of last check, years back, it wasn't possible to find much of it outside of New Zealand. As it's fairly scarce any more, period. Plus, mostly it’s non-exportable.

Good qualities; rot resistance, straight clear grain, low density, good physical properties (strength), easy to work with. Oh, & it's pretty, when finished clear, too. Kauri | The Wood Database - Lumber Identification (Softwoods)

You'll find a fair bit of info on Kauri via a Bing.com search, under "Kauri wood", & "Kauri wood for boats". And Googling it from a different computer may yield more results. "Thanks" to Google's so called, search "tuning" per user browsing history function.
Kauri (wood) hulls - Cruising Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums
Kauri Wood Boat 1955
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass...atbuilding.pdf


As to Cedar. There are plenty of varieties which are outstanding for boats, given the proper application. And you can find many species with excellent rot resistance, relatively speaking. As well as having good mechanical properties, & low density. The only catch being, the price (of some flavors).

Cedars are used in many boats built in the Pacific NW. Like the Cape George cutters, for example. Which are built by some world renowned craftsmen (nice guys too).
Ditto on it's use in much more modern & high tech boats too, like Rage, built by & for Steve Rander (formerly) the owner of Schooner Creek Boatworks in Portland. She's a super fast, very durable (Sic) racer-cruiser. As are her cousins.

In a pinch, for info, pricing, & sourcing, look up www.EdensawWoods.com in Port Townsend, WA. Plus Frost Hardwoods in San Diego, CA (Miramar, where Top Gun used to be). And you can kick around on Online Materials Information Resource - MatWeb for some of the physical properties. As well as the wood data base, etc.
Also, the Pardey’s have a good, abridged page in one of their books, covering what woods work well, & where, specifically.


I don't know if it's been mentioned already or not. But some guys will pull the planks on a boat, & spline them all together, with or without glue (usually with), for a more monocoque structure.
And on some boats, much life can be added to them by sheathing the hulls with wooden skins, a ‘la cold molding. It seals things, as well as adding some buoyancy to offset the additional weight.
Option #3 is a bit tricky, but the hull can be glassed on some boats. Though, yes, with most of these, she's becoming less of a traditional wooden boat per say. But they are options in some cases.

Regardless, if you know that the boat has issues, realize that you'll be doing mucho refitting, & very little sailing for quite a while. And not to be a downer, but read this piece by Nigel Calder A Refit Reality Check | Cruising World

Good luck!
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Old 30-06-2016, 03:57   #73
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Re: Wood blue water boat opinions, would you buy one

Quote:
Originally Posted by double u View Post
an insight into the maintenance-intensity a wooden boat can require:
The Swiss owner of a lovely 32' Buchanan design, traditionally built wooden boat when asked if they had books to swap (in those days the cruisers on the coconut-milkrun used to swap books [to read during nightwatches, etc.]) answered, totally perplexed in his inimitable swiss accent:
"Books??? We don't have books, there is no time to read, we have a wooden boat!"
(this was in Tonga 90' & we had a 5-months-baby on board, & even we had -a little- time to read...)
That's good, I like that, had to chuckle on that one, maybe so, but this thing is something else, I once saw what the owner had described as a Buchanan Designed , Steel, double ender, in Malaysia, but could not find it in the list of designs for Buchanan, I think it was on sailboat data, it also was built in NZ, and looks remarkably like this one, beautiful boat, I do think the Kiwi's build great seaworthy boats
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Old 30-06-2016, 04:01   #74
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Re: Wood blue water boat opinions, would you buy one

...& I got stories to tell regarding the maintenance of steel boats too...
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Old 30-06-2016, 07:14   #75
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Re: Wood blue water boat opinions, would you buy one

SKG: You've done us all a great favour :-)!

I was thinking: "Whyn't he just as about kauri-wood up front?", but look what a wonderful discussion you generated! All kindsa stuff being learned by all kindsa people - and that's just the few that post. There's got to be many, many more, just lurking, who learned something from this thread :-)!

Looks, now, like it's a "go", doesn't it?

All the best!

TrentePieds
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