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Old 03-01-2013, 11:51   #76
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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Do you think that greater comforts on board have improved seaworthiness? Say, for example, the ice maker and a comfy chair means a couple can have a Marghurita Sundowner at sea therefore be more relaxed and attuned to their sailing? More comfy beds (dry ones) mean people,get better sleep, etc.
who drinks when actively sail cruising??? i don't nor does my crew--but, at anchor, as long as someone is sane enough to do reliable anchor watch and help relocate boat in case of need, sundowners work...

but more sea worthy??? is a different listing than this one....
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:51   #77
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
I'm not sure what you're arguing here.

If Spray was marginal and it was only Slocum's skill as a seaman that made the difference, you're then suggesting that his luck ran out, he capsized and drowned?

If so, ultimately being a "good skipper" was not enough to overcome a substandard craft. I daresay, under those circumstances, his inability to swim would not have made much difference. In any case, Chapelle's analysis doesn't do anything but add to the speculation. He merely notes (at least from what's written above) that Spray was prone to capsize. He doesn't seem to have any hard evidence that's what actually happened. After all, Slocum had made it around the world without a problem, so why would capsize/drowning be any more likely than the theory that he was simply run down?

... and if he was indeed run-down by a steamer, that probably says more about the skipper than it does the boat.
I think to be a good skipper you would need to be able to swim...
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:58   #78
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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I agree with that, but isn't the discussion about what a Blue Water boat is? I think it ads to safety.

You are right AIS hasn't led to a ramping of cruising number because I don't think it has the penetration amongst cruisers yet (as can be seen by the anti-AIS lobby on this forum), and its only one of several advances. Newbys do have a fear of being run down by ships... And that fear goes back to Slocumb! He didn't arrive so people said he was run down by a ship! Or whale! Or hit by a container 70 years before they were invented.

Do you think that greater comforts on board have improved seaworthiness? Say, for example, the ice maker and a comfy chair means a couple can have a Marghurita Sundowner at sea therefore be more relaxed and attuned to their sailing? More comfy beds (dry ones) mean people,get better sleep, etc.
It would be nice to have a little more room than I have in my heavy cruiser, but for the most part, there's plenty. I live aboard and last year did a 2-week cruise with 5 people. It was fine.

I think motion comfort, not necessarily that number that gets bandied about, but a more subjective measure, is more important than creature comforts. In that regard I do find some - but by no means all - modern cruising designs less than desireable. Motion comfort, or the lack thereof, contributes more to crew fatigue than anything else, IMHO.

But you have many more miles under the (fin) keel than I do. What do you think?
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:02   #79
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

ais doesnt let ye see pangas or nets off mexico----so it isnt gonna make a difference here where i am ...and freighters are soooo visible at sea....
sea worthy to me is intact hull and systems that actually function or can be made to function....as long as passage is dry-ish.....and boat isnt full of diesel overflow on the sole of cabin....and some other stuff i have come across in my days of cruising on opb...
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:08   #80
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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I think to be a good skipper you would need to be able to swim...
I thought a good skipper was one who contrived to stay aboard. My father never was able to learn to swim (one of those few people with negative buoyancy - I wouldn't have believed it had I not seen it with my own eyes). He was an excellent skipper. If anything, more conscientious because of his desire to not go in unexpectedly.

Besides, the ability to swim, while desirable aboard a boat, is rather overrated, IMHO.

I think it can make people cocky. I can't count the number of times I have had to argue with a guest about my requirement (usually for their kid) to wear a PFD. 'Oh, such and such knows how to swim.'

I then have to explain about hypothermia, the time it takes to rescue a MOB, the possibility of hitting something on the way in, etc. etc. Usually, that settles it, at least for the parent, but not always. Btw, if the kid gets all teary eyed, that's when I break out the PFDs for all the adults and explain that it's a good idea for us all to wear them 'just to be safe' - that almost invariably satisfies the kid, who usually isn't thinking about safety, but instead about equal treatment.

Anyway, if you handle yourself properly, there's no reason you should ever go overboard, which makes the need to swim a moot point.

Again, it's a good thing to know, but if you go overboard in a state of unconsciousness, either single-handed or with a crew that takes awhile to get back to you, or whatever, you're going to be toast without a PFD.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:11   #81
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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ais doesnt let ye see pangas or nets off mexico----so it isnt gonna make a difference here where i am ...and freighters are soooo visible at sea....
sea worthy to me is intact hull and systems that actually function or can be made to function....as long as passage is dry-ish.....and boat isnt full of diesel overflow on the sole of cabin....and some other stuff i have come across in my days of cruising on opb...
Of course you've got to keep that in mind. But when you its thick as soup on the East Coast and you hear a ship's fog horn behind you - somewhere - as happened to me last May on a trip to Newport, R.I., it was a comfort being able to identify the vessel and to radio her by name.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:49   #82
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
who drinks when actively sail cruising??? i don't nor does my crew--.... sundowners work...

but more sea worthy??? ..
Americans are scared of alcohol, but every other navy always had it, Australian navy still has 2 cans per man, per day. Try drag a wine bottle off a French sailor.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post

I think motion comfort,

But you have many more miles under the (fin) keel than I do. What do you think?
Oh, I think fin keels are more comfortable than full keels. When I was young I raced for years on a 48 foot full keel boat offshore on long races. Everyone had to hot bunk because no one could sleep in the forward berth...
But I always sleep in the forward berth at sea on this boat... No lee cloths. Everyone had lee cloths on the full keeler.

A full keeler goes up and down more IMHO.

I don't know why everyone thinks full keelers are more comfortable or more "sea kindly" as my opinion is they are not.

Anyway, given a few days people adjust to being able to sleep on a rock with some briar as a pillow.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:58   #83
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Americans are scared of alcohol, but every other navy always had it, Australian navy still has 2 cans per man, per day. Try drag a wine bottle off a French sailor.





Oh, I think fin keels are more comfortable than full keels. When I was young I raced for years on a 48 foot full keel boat offshore on long races. Everyone had to hot bunk because no one could sleep in the forward berth...
But I always sleep in the forward berth at sea on this boat... No lee cloths. Everyone had lee cloths on the full keeler.

A full keeler goes up and down more IMHO.

I don't know why everyone thinks full keelers are more comfortable or more "sea kindly" as my opinion is they are not.

Anyway, given a few days people adjust to being able to sleep on a rock with some briar as a pillow.
Just the opposite of my experience. Really.
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Old 03-01-2013, 13:04   #84
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Do you think that greater comforts on board have improved seaworthiness? Say, for example, the ice maker and a comfy chair means a couple can have a Marghurita Sundowner at sea therefore be more relaxed and attuned to their sailing? More comfy beds (dry ones) mean people,get better sleep, etc.
Why yes I do think this and suggested so in post #3. Maybe this is why there are more cruisers now because women (and some men like say..Don Lucas) want to be comfort and that results in more couple heading out. Sailing and cruising doesn't have to be like camping in a tent!

And I will freely admit that I have been know to enjoy a cold one while underway (I've learned the difference between having a beer and "drinking").

I remember being in Norway when I was on submarine duty. There was a Canadian sub docked in front of us and while we were loading ships stores of "food", they were loading beer!
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Old 03-01-2013, 13:11   #85
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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Why yes I do think this and suggested so in post #3.
Like I read your posts?




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Old 03-01-2013, 13:26   #86
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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In principle, I agree with you. But, I would posit that boats are not the same as "products."

I would compare the boats of the 60s and 70s to the spacecraft of the 60s and 70s. Sure, there have been advances since then, but the physics of getting Apollo to the Moon have not changed and even though there's less "pure awkwardness" (read: 8 bit flight computers) needed to make the trip, there's still plenty of "brute force" (i.e., same basic chemical rockets).

...
Never thought of comparing the boats of the 60s and 70s to the Apollo to the moon. Somewhat over the top.

Appollo was absolutely cutting edge technology at the time whilst those vessels were simply refinement of prior vessels.
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Old 03-01-2013, 13:26   #87
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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I remember being in Norway when I was on submarine duty. There was a Canadian sub docked in front of us and while we were loading ships stores of "food", they were loading beer!
Well they're Canadian, eh! Beer=Food.
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Old 03-01-2013, 13:32   #88
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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I thought a good skipper was one who contrived to stay aboard. My father never was able to learn to swim (one of those few people with negative buoyancy - I wouldn't have believed it had I not seen it with my own eyes). He was an excellent skipper. If anything, more conscientious because of his desire to not go in unexpectedly.

Besides, the ability to swim, while desirable aboard a boat, is rather overrated, IMHO.

I think it can make people cocky. I can't count the number of times I have had to argue with a guest about my requirement (usually for their kid) to wear a PFD. 'Oh, such and such knows how to swim.'

I then have to explain about hypothermia, the time it takes to rescue a MOB, the possibility of hitting something on the way in, etc. etc. Usually, that settles it, at least for the parent, but not always. Btw, if the kid gets all teary eyed, that's when I break out the PFDs for all the adults and explain that it's a good idea for us all to wear them 'just to be safe' - that almost invariably satisfies the kid, who usually isn't thinking about safety, but instead about equal treatment.

Anyway, if you handle yourself properly, there's no reason you should ever go overboard, which makes the need to swim a moot point.

Again, it's a good thing to know, but if you go overboard in a state of unconsciousness, either single-handed or with a crew that takes awhile to get back to you, or whatever, you're going to be toast without a PFD.
Being able to swim/dive can add a lot to a skipper being able to check a vessel's underwater profile, anchors etc. A highly useful adittional skill and cruising skippers need multiskilling.
Thats not to say non swimmers cannot get away with it.
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Old 03-01-2013, 14:06   #89
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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Like I read your posts?




That's why you haven't gotten that 6-pack of beer that I posted I would buy you! I was even willing to bring it over for sharing on that death trap boat of yours!

Pay attention or you miss out on stuff!
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Old 03-01-2013, 14:44   #90
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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Just the opposite of my experience. Really.
Me too. Disclaimer: I don't have anywhere near the miles of others here. Last year while crewing for a friend bringing his boat south for the winter we hit some *really* snotty weather off the coast of SC. Eighteen hours of confused sea conditions with the last half of that a real washing machine. This was in a heavy full keel Cabo Rico 42. We managed really well. The boat handled all with no drama. We were getting pushed around a bit, but we continued making coffee and following our plan. The boat seemed more to cut her way through rather than fight her way over. Cockpit remained dry(ish). Other boats in the same area going the same way had a very different story to tell. This was no small storm. Further offshore a life was lost overboard on one boat and another rolled and lost her rig in this same storm. We were fortunately a bit closer in and didn't have quite as bad conditions. The point is that the fin keel boats, some larger, more immediately around us were describing vastly worse beatings than we recalled. It may have been that we were doing a better job of sailing. I can take no credit for that as my crewmate and skipper made those decisions and I followed their lead. I just know that after hearing how horrible other boats described things, I was truly impressed with the boats handling of the rough sea. I suppose YMMV
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