Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-01-2013, 13:37   #151
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
In this month's Good Old Boat, marine surveyor and cruiser (150k miles in all types of rigs) says exactly the same thing I have frequently argued:

"In ideal conditions, a modern lightweight hull form is potentially much faster than a traditional heavy hull, but in a real seaway all bets are off. In many cases, the traditional heavy boat designed and developed to sail in real ocean conditions is superior to and safer than a modern design and more likely to deliver its crew comfortably to the next port."
__________________

__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 14:02   #152
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 382
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Post #152 and no sign of chucklet... Alas if it wasn't for trolls inspiring us to converse about the same old bluewater issue, what would we talk about?

That said, I too would love to know who else thinks their boats aren't bluewater capable? Heck, I'd even like to hear from folks who would admit in what conditions their boats cease to be comfortable.
__________________

__________________
terminalcitygrl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 14:21   #153
Registered User
 
Nessus's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 69
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Steve Dashew describes in his books how each new boat he build had a shorter keel than the previous, and was more comfortable to boot. He also quite convincingly argues that a long keeled boat doesn't necessarily track better, but is harder to steer.
He's also building 45,000# 60's with a 7 foot draft. You don't see too many 60-70 yachts with full keels anymore. It would cost a fortune.
__________________
Nessus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 14:29   #154
Senior Cruiser
 
Randyonr3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Beneteau FIRST 42
Posts: 1,836
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
In this month's Good Old Boat, marine surveyor and cruiser (150k miles in all types of rigs) says exactly the same thing I have frequently argued:

"In ideal conditions, a modern lightweight hull form is potentially much faster than a traditional heavy hull, but in a real seaway all bets are off. In many cases, the traditional heavy boat designed and developed to sail in real ocean conditions is superior to and safer than a modern design and more likely to deliver its crew comfortably to the next port."
.

So where do you draw the line, is it by year, by make, or design. Our First is now
30 years old, a fin keel and sports the name Beneteau on its sides. All of which would be.classes amount those not sought after for blue water, But the boat was built for exactlyfor that purpose, and competed in a number of world ocean races. With a good number of wins. The rigging is double the size of most any other boat.its size, weighs in at 24 K when empty and gives a very sea kindly ride, and is to say the .least, a Damn fast boat.
In many of the heavy weight circles, it would be ousted for its name alone which would be a big mistake.
__________________
Randyonr3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 14:36   #155
Registered User
 
endoftheroad's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Key West
Boat: Westsail 32 and Herreshoff 28
Posts: 1,159
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl View Post
Post #152 and no sign of chucklet... Alas if it wasn't for trolls inspiring us to converse about the same old bluewater issue, what would we talk about?

That said, I too would love to know who else thinks their boats aren't bluewater capable? Heck, I'd even like to hear from folks who would admit in what conditions their boats cease to be comfortable.
My boat isn't capable till I become more experienced.
__________________
endoftheroad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 14:47   #156
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,210
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

A Tiki 21 circumnavigated a few years back and is a regular competiter in the 'Jester Challenge' Plymouth, UK to Newport, USA.
So as you can see.. most boats are capable if prepared, handled well and not pushed to breaking point... and the skippers not a W.O.F.T.
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 14:49   #157
Moderator
 
Hudson Force's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Lived aboard & cruised for 45 years,- now on a chair in my walk-in closet.
Boat: Morgan OI 413 1973 - Aythya
Posts: 7,894
Images: 1
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl View Post
.............. I too would love to know who else thinks their boats aren't bluewater capable? Heck, I'd even like to hear from folks who would admit in what conditions their boats cease to be comfortable.
First, I would repeat, as said before, there is no operational definition of a "bluewater" boat. I would be very quick to claim that my Morgan OI 41' is NOT a "bluewater" boat; however, I've known them to have been sailed to Australia and back so I would suggest that they are bluewater capable,- I believe there's a general difference in these terms. I believe my vessel remains capable despite it's age because I've continued to refit shrouds and chainplates and remained attentive to maintenance and upgrades. A bluewater capable boat would be likely to complete the passage. I would think that a "bluewater" boat would do this in speed and comfort. The comfort question is difficult too. I've been somewhat uncomfortable beating to windward offshore in 30 kt winds with 10' seas at an approximate 6 second period or during a thunderstorm offshore with confused seas without a pattern, but my greatest discomforts have been in places like the Delaware Bay or the Albamarle Sound with the steep, short period, obnoxious, rattling, incessant, unnatural 5' square chop!
__________________
Take care and joy, Aythya crew
Hudson Force is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 14:49   #158
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,210
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl View Post
That said, I too would love to know who else thinks their boats aren't bluewater capable? Heck, I'd even like to hear from folks who would admit in what conditions their boats cease to be comfortable.
F2 and a 3in swell....
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 14:56   #159
Moderator
 
Hudson Force's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Lived aboard & cruised for 45 years,- now on a chair in my walk-in closet.
Boat: Morgan OI 413 1973 - Aythya
Posts: 7,894
Images: 1
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
F2 and a 3in swell....
'or in that still hot calm when the sky blends with the sea and no horizon can be found!
__________________
Take care and joy, Aythya crew
Hudson Force is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 15:04   #160
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
A Tiki 21 circumnavigated a few years back and is a regular competiter in the 'Jester Challenge' Plymouth, UK to Newport, USA.
So as you can see.. most boats are capable if prepared, handled well and not pushed to breaking point... and the skippers not a W.O.F.T.
The Jester challenge promotes the seaworthiness of small boats. To me the results apply the opposite.
Despite a well prepared boat, and generally experienced skippers, 1/3 to 1/2, some years more, retire, failing to make their destination.
It always suggests to me that these vessels were not adequate for the voyage.

Nevertheless I dip my hat to them for giving it a try
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 15:19   #161
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,210
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The Jester challenge promotes the seaworthiness of small boats. To me the results apply the opposite.
Despite a well prepared boat, and generally experienced skippers, 1/3 to 1/2, some years more, retire, failing to make their destination.
It always suggests to me that these vessels were not adequate for the voyage.

Nevertheless I dip my hat to them for giving it a try
Actually its usually because of their size and speed...
its for 21-30ft boats held at an adverse time of the year for the trip... name me an ocean race where there are no drop outs through gear failure etc..
MingMing for example is a junk rigged Corribee 21.. she and her skipper have sailed to the Artic and done some serious **** in the past... he pulled out because consistant head winds slowed him down so much it was not worth continuing.. there are no set routes...
For quite a few its their 1st offshore experience... also cause for dropouts...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 15:44   #162
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Headlines like this do not really inspire confidence in the cruising ability of these sized boats.

Jester Azores Challenge 2008 a huge success!
42 Starters and 28 finishers read more


A huge success

I admire the courage and skill of these sailors, but the message is passage making in this type of yacht is lottery.

Lyn and Larry Pardey show what it possible, but I think to cruise this small a boat you need exceptional skill and ability. The Jester chalange shows us that average results are poor for this sized yacht.
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 15:55   #163
Registered User
 
endoftheroad's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Key West
Boat: Westsail 32 and Herreshoff 28
Posts: 1,159
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Actually its usually because of their size and speed...
its for 21-30ft boats held at an adverse time of the year for the trip... name me an ocean race where there are no drop outs through gear failure etc..
MingMing for example is a junk rigged Corribee 21.. she and her skipper have sailed to the Artic and done some serious **** in the past... he pulled out because consistant head winds slowed him down so much it was not worth continuing.. there are no set routes...
For quite a few its their 1st offshore experience... also cause for dropouts...
And he broke a rib or two during a knockdown.
He's a cool dude, great youtube videos btw.
__________________
endoftheroad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 16:12   #164
Registered User
 
westsail374's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Durham, NC
Boat: Looking...
Posts: 318
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
there is a difference, quite large, actually, between boats popped out of a mold in low numbers and those popped out of a mold in very large quantity.
production means large quantity, mass production style.
A lot of Westsail 32s were produced, but they are tough little boats.

__________________
westsail374 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 16:34   #165
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
.

So where do you draw the line, is it by year, by make, or design. Our First is now
30 years old, a fin keel and sports the name Beneteau on its sides. All of which would be.classes amount those not sought after for blue water, But the boat was built for exactlyfor that purpose, and competed in a number of world ocean races. With a good number of wins. The rigging is double the size of most any other boat.its size, weighs in at 24 K when empty and gives a very sea kindly ride, and is to say the .least, a Damn fast boat.
In many of the heavy weight circles, it would be ousted for its name alone which would be a big mistake.
I don't draw the line anywhere. I am simply quoting someone else's opinion. That it mirrors observation when it comes to blue water rallies is just a bonus. You see it all the time. In real world conditions speed advantages tend to even the playing field.
__________________

__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Refurbing / Refitting an Older boat - Advice and Ideas David_Old_Jersey Construction, Maintenance & Refit 529 02-06-2015 18:21
What is your Favorite Boat? cruiserbill Monohull Sailboats 43 09-04-2012 20:07
What Makes a Boat 'Bluewater' ? simonpickard Monohull Sailboats 86 15-11-2011 14:58



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:16.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.