What can one expect for general condition of a Good Old Boat? Bristol 27.

[Atcowboy]

Hi,
I've just started "seriously" looking around for my first boat (meaning going to view them). So far the condition of the boats I've been looking at has come to surprise me. My price point is <$15k. They sure look pretty in the pictures! Not so much in person.

Were these cars, I'd have a great idea of what I should expect. But they aren't, and I'd like to glean some experience from others on what the general condition of an "old" boats is? Something that may be found on https://atomvoyages.com/planning/goo...oats-list.html for example. These "good old boats" with proven pedigree don't seem to be just everywhere (not many listings) so finding what I want in a boat (dirt simple, cheap, sturdy) seems rare. So when one comes around, it seems worth giving it consideration even if it isn't in show condition.

For instance, I just went to look at a Bristol 27. I have a long list of findings from looking over the boat, but in short the wiring is scary and a lot of the furniture and bulkheads (down near the bilge) show water damage. I've attached a picture as an example. So, in a boat from the 70's, is it basically someone has recently refit everything but the hull, or kept it immaculate, or neither of these has been done and it's time to gut it?

The Bristol looks really sharp on the outside (all new bright work), the fiberglass seems mostly solid, and the owner supposedly just had the toe rails rebedded. It looks like he had it done long after it was due though, as the water damage was either from the hull-to-deck joint or the chain plates poking through the deck. There seems to be good value in the bones of the boat so I don't want to ignore it. This particular boat has an asking price of $2,500, and if boats from this era are mostly just like this, I may make an offer based off having to put a whole new interior in it. If this type of damage is an outlier, than I'll just thank the owner and move on.

Thoughts?

[laika]

It's hard to tell by what you describe, but extensive water damage and the need for an interior rebuild is not the norm and would squarely qualify as a project boat in my book.

There are a lot of good old boats out there, and fewer and fewer people who want to buy them. Don't be afraid to walk away. Find an owner who clearly cares for the boat and shows a willingness to help you learn the boat both before and after you buy it. Either that, or find a friend or hire a good surveyor who you can shadow to look the boat over with.

Good luck!

[Fore and Aft]

It really depends on your skill level when buying a cheap yacht. If you are not handy with tools then you may as well keep looking. Most older boats are going to need some work. I think if you find one with a good engine and rig the rest you could tackle yourself. As for putting a whole new interior in, that is waaaay more work then you realise.
Cheers

[Tillsbury]

You want the boat that's in good structural order down below, but has been abandoned for a year or two so is filthy and green on the outside. They go cheap and improve dramatically after a couple of days of thorough cleaning.

[Don C L]

A whole new interior is a job I wouldn't want to take on without a full shop right next to the boat and a couple good friends to help... and a friend at WestSystem, and West Marine too! If it is just repairing some minor water damage well, that's a different matter. As an owner of an old boat I'd say most old boats have had 3 or 4 owners or more by now and the last one may have figured he was going to be the last and let things slide. I'd be more interested in the condition of the interior than the exterior, since things like bulkheads are more crucial than toerails, although that does depend on the boat. IMO if you have enough tools, the DIY skills, access to garage or shop space, time and energy, working on a good old boat can be a thing of pleasure that can yield worthwhile results, and a really good boat to go sailing in, without breaking the bank. That's how I'm doing it. Little by little and keeping the major things taken care of. And keeping her sailing. If a boat gets locked up in a yard for a long time, especially for something like a full cosmetic job where ALL the fittings are removed and there's prep and primer and paint... or if it needs a new mast or boom or sails, then it can get discouraging. There are folks who get halfway into a job and then call it quits, and if you don't mind picking up where they left off you can get a boat for free. The old boats, especially if they have been left sitting for a few years, may be going for free now or sold for the lead, which is a bit sad for those of us who appreciate their virtues. So if you aren't seeing them on craigslist try looking around at yards and ask around. AND if the engine is shot, you can be sure it will be very cheap because most may figure it is not worth the $10K to get an old boat going again. Now there are a few folks on here who are making restoring old boats on a shoestring an art form and you'd be wise to pick their brains! Newhaul is one.
There is definitely a part of me that would love to have a vacant lot, a shop on it and a truck with a big 3 axle trailer to pick up those good ol' boats from the 60s and get them cleaned up and sailing again. There is a Cal 34 right near me, still floating in a slip, that calls out for someone with some enthusiasm to clean her up. They're all over the place. It's good to do some research though, some boats are more worthy than others, but that will possibly generate some heated discussions.
Where are you btw?

[nightowle]

This really depends somewhat on where you're located. I've seen respectably clean older Catalina's in my area go for under 15k in sail away condition. Other boats, as well. You just need to keep looking and ask a lot of questions of the seller before going to look at the boat. Like: "if you were keeping the boat what would be the top 3 things you'd be doing to it?"

[Atcowboy]

Thank you all for the many replies!

There were some common questions and suggestions that I'd like to address:

1) location. I have been looking for boats in Maine, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts (USA).
Although my yacht world searches are world wide, because short boats for short money area so rare, it i search every week this is like 5 boats.

2) handyness: 1-10, I'd say I rate 8 or 9 shore side. At this point most things I encounter I have fixed once, or often, or have taken formal training and do it for a living. So AC/DC, carpentry, or mechanic work I've done a lot of. I *hope* my boat ends up speaking so well of my work that I can keep her sailing by being a handyman.

3) interior: I imagined that if I could get this somewhere close to where I live (which isn't near the ocean unfortunately) it would probably take from now to next summer, so a full year of much effort. All sea side docks are at least one hour from me. Hard to say if it's worth the effort since I don't know what a Bristol 27 is worth when in Bristol fashion.

If I had to grab a consensus answer it would be either get the boat for free if I was all about owning a Bristol, or even for free she's over priced.

As far as continuing the search, I of course am. There was no one at the boat yard during my Bristol 'survey' but I looked around for other boats. There were none marked for sale, but I did write down a couple of names to ask about for boats that the owners may not have realized/admitted are for sale yet.

Best

[dcstrng]

Originally Posted by Atcowboy

If I had to grab a consensus answer it would be either get the boat for free if I was all about owning a Bristol, or even for free she's over priced...

Free might be a stretch if it is sailable, but at $2500, the B27 seller is probably telegraphing many systems will need upgrading… in that era boat, the wiring is pretty basic, but probably needs a complete redo anyway – ditto running rigging, probably standing rigging (at that price doubt it has adhered to the ten-year rule, my B24 surely hadn't -- no matter), cushions, etc., for anything other than local gunkholing. Nonetheless you should expect most structural areas to be sound – water incursion in a structural bullhead is usually a big no-no… I had a B24 I got for well less that $1000, and although the cosmetics were shot, structurally she was sound enough to give us 8-9 years of active local sailing – sails looked terrible, but once repaired (by hand, mine…) they stood up to another half a decade of Bay sailing. The full-keel Bristols are generally pretty stout little boats, but neglect can do them in – still, they are basic and not too much is hidden ether, so a reasonably attentive and knowledgeable buyer shouldn’t be surprised down the road…

[Atcowboy]

Originally Posted by dcstrng

Free might be a stretch if it is sailable, but at $2500, the B27 seller is probably telegraphing many systems will need upgrading… in that era boat, the wiring is pretty basic, but probably needs a complete redo anyway – ditto running rigging, probably standing rigging (at that price doubt it has adhered to the ten-year rule, my B24 surely hadn't -- no matter), cushions, etc., for anything other than local gunkholing. Nonetheless you should expect most structural areas to be sound – water incursion in a structural bullhead is usually a big no-no… I had a B24 I got for well less that $1000, and although the cosmetics were shot, structurally she was sound enough to give us 8-9 years of active local sailing – sails looked terrible, but once repaired (by hand, mine…) they stood up to another half a decade of Bay sailing. The full-keel Bristols are generally pretty stout little boats, but neglect can do them in – still, they are basic and not too much is hidden ether, so a reasonably attentive and knowledgeable buyer shouldn’t be surprised down the road…

The sails were still crispy, and the stitching looked good. I didn't unfold them though.

Rigging. The mast was unstepped and in some mystery place in the yard along with the standing rigging. But just like you say, they had no idea how old it was.

The westerbeke looked like a dirty old engine. I kinda dream of going without, but if it blew up I may replace it with an electric motor. Again, no hour meter so no idea.

Not having a vast amount of experience in this respect to draw on, I would say that it could sail locally this spring with no work to the interior. I don't think it would implode. But I'm looking for a long term home, one that I intend to move under sale to the Caribbean, so "it probably won't implode" isn't a very good metric.

[Chris31415]

Originally Posted by Atcowboy

As far as continuing the search, I of course am.

Most of the smaller boats listed on YachtWorld have been on there for a while and not many new listings over the winter. Presumably there will be more new listings in the Spring.

Have you considered some of the other makes on the list? Alberg, Cape Dory, Bayfield, etc.?

[Atcowboy]

Originally Posted by Chris31415

Most of the smaller boats listed on YachtWorld have been on there for a while and not many new listings over the winter. Presumably there will be more new listings in the Spring.

Have you considered some of the other makes on the list? Alberg, Cape Dory, Bayfield, etc.?

Absolutely! My search is rather broad; 24-32ft, sail, $1-$15k.

Besides Cape Dory, none seem super common. And those cape dory's aren't necessarily on the list. There are a couple Bayfield 32's on yacht world (again not on "the list") but they would be a flight away. Since every boat I've looked at has been a little worse than I was expecting, paying $220 just in air fair to see a boat with punky plywood and mold under the cabin sole would probably make me sad. But the 32 really caught my eye (the front storage area looked like a perfect work shop to me!). But a refit on a fancy boat like that is mucho monies. The Bene First 305 caught my eye also (very not on the good old boat list) but I just started to imagine trying to get all that fancy stuff working (like the rusty keel bolts)... If I refit this Bristol it would be a simple layout, with simple sturdy joiner work, reusing all the hardware I could. I have no intention of making a boat that looks like it crashed through the local chandlery.

Plus I could make it exactly what I want, completely ruining the resale value

[CaptainGrey]

I say buy it, after whittling the price down a bit.
I just sold a B27, and for less than that, and in good condition, though as with any old boat, there are a list of projects that the new owner has undertaken.
I have a limited budget, so I prioritized and picked a project per year. Standing rigging 5 years ago, running gear one year, reef tackle another year, re-wire the mast . . .
Using that method, I did a lot of sailing and got a lot of work done. Leaks around the chainplates had discolored some of the interior, but they are all well bedded so I wasn't worried about losing the rig (unlike the B24).
There is a Bristol 27 owners group with lots of project boats, and many owners' pictures, including JURA. (Bristol27.com » Hull #048 – Jura)
PS IMHO, the Cape Dory designs can't come close to Carl Alberg's for performance.

[Exctyengr]

Welcome Atcowboy to the wonderful world of messing with boats (and fixing them up) and welcome to the forum. I recommend that you check out "Marine Survey 101" (Just do a web search) the author, a marine surveyor, goes into great detail about what to look for in a boat. The Bristol 27 is a good boat, well designed and from what I have seen, well initial build quality. But the boat has been sitting in a harsh environment for 40 years(?) so some rebuild is expected. Get ahold of Don Casey's "Good Old Boat" and Nigel Calder's "Boat owners mechanical and electrical manual" both good references and quite readable.
Now the water damage that you found, has it caused delimitation? If not, it might be cosmetic in nature and renewable. Westerbeke is a good engine, polish the fuel, clean it up, change the oil and filter and all the fuel filters and you should be good to go! (I actually submerged one part way and once it was cleaned up and the starter motor replaced, lasted until I sold the boat). Wiring can be dangerous but usually on a small sail boat can be fairly easy to replace. Just don't cut corners use tinned wire and do some design work before tackling it.
Good luck my friend, keep us posted.

[Atcowboy]

Originally Posted by Exctyengr

Welcome Atcowboy to the wonderful world of messing with boats (and fixing them up) and welcome to the forum. I recommend that you check out "Marine Survey 101" (Just do a web search) the author, a marine surveyor, goes into great detail about what to look for in a boat. The Bristol 27 is a good boat, well designed and from what I have seen, well initial build quality. But the boat has been sitting in a harsh environment for 40 years(?) so some rebuild is expected. Get ahold of Don Casey's "Good Old Boat" and Nigel Calder's "Boat owners mechanical and electrical manual" both good references and quite readable.
Now the water damage that you found, has it caused delimitation? If not, it might be cosmetic in nature and renewable. Westerbeke is a good engine, polish the fuel, clean it up, change the oil and filter and all the fuel filters and you should be good to go! (I actually submerged one part way and once it was cleaned up and the starter motor replaced, lasted until I sold the boat). Wiring can be dangerous but usually on a small sail boat can be fairly easy to replace. Just don't cut corners use tinned wire and do some design work before tackling it.
Good luck my friend, keep us posted.

Thank you for the suggestions friend. I've read Casey's books (good old boat, and inspecting the aging sailboat) cover to cover. I have Nigel's book, but haven't read it yet (working through the thornless path right now). Nigel's book is next on the list. I'll read your surveying suggestion also.

I'm not really worried about to the engine - more just a statement. Rebuilding a diesel is something I've done a couple times, many more for gas powered.

But this is definitely to the point of delamination. I'll attach another pic. It seems like the base of the bulkheads got soft, then compressed, and have probably dried out now.

The big question still is, is this what is to be expected from the market of good old boats? (Not just about this Bristol) If it is, well it's time to stop whining and get to work. If it isn't I just need to walk away.

Best,
AT

[Cheechako]

Some more expensive things to consider when buying:
-Tanks: age? hard to remove? In the bilge = corrosion? expensive to do labor wise
-Water ingress in cored hulls or deck. Avoid cored hulls.
-Rudders are very often water logged inside. Most people dont even realize it.
-engine and shaft of course. A shaft sitting unused in salt water will often be corroded inside the stuffing box and need replacement. If it's dripping a lot it may need more than just tightening the stuffing box.
-blisters: very expensive often.
-sails can cost more than a cheap boat, make sure they are good.
-bolt on keels are just another added risk of cost.
-Toe rail leaks if bolted on rails can be very hard to fix.