To-do list: refit a 10-20 yr boat for bluewater sailing

[The Wolf]

New to the forum, but not new to sailing.

The wife and I plan to sail the Caribbean/Bahamas and across the Atlantic from Florida in 7 years’ time (retirement age).

Looking to buy a 40-45 ft production boat 10-20 years old with a hull and deck in excellent condition (no rot, osmosis, joint leaks, etc). I plan to refit the vessel, per details below (some professional completed, some DIY).

Am I missing anything significant?

I assume even with “professional” installation of items indicated, it would still be cheaper than buying a dedicated new blue water vessel (HR, Najad, Contest, X)?

What timeframe to complete would I be looking at, given the scope below, on the hard, full time (8 hrs/day)?

New
• Mast – professional
• Boom (in-furling) – professional
• Sails : Jib (furling), Gennaker (furling), asymmetric spinnaker, storm – professional
• Standing rigging - professional
• Running rigging including clutches/blocks/sleeves/pulleys – professional
• Autopilot – professional
• Hydrovane - diy
• Stuffing box or dripless shaft seals – professional
• Mattresses/cushions/linens – diy
• Watermaker - diy
• Through-hulls - diy

Upgraded
• Navigation electronics - professional/diy
• Inverter - professional/diy
• Batteries (LiFePo4) - diy
• Solar panels - diy
• Electrical power winches – professional
• Alternator - diy
• Microwave/stove/refrigeration/freezer - diy
• Navigation lights - professional/diy

Serviced
• Engine – professional
• Generator – professional
• Prop & prop shaft – professional/diy
• Rudder & housing – professional/diy
• Hatches/ports/windows – professional
• Woodwork/trim - diy
• Tanks (cleaning) - diy
• Plumbing - diy
• Heads - diy
• Anti-fouling - diy

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

New to the forum, but not new to sailing.

The wife and I plan to sail the Caribbean/Bahamas and across the Atlantic from Florida in 7 years’ time (retirement age).

Looking to buy a 40-45 ft production boat 10-20 years old with a hull and deck in excellent condition (no rot, osmosis, joint leaks, etc). I plan to refit the vessel, per details below (some professional completed, some DIY).

Am I missing anything significant?

New
• Mast – professional - Not required.
• Boom (in-furling) – professional - Not required.
• Sails : Jib (furling), Gennaker (furling), asymmetric spinnaker, storm – professional - Buy the winter prior to your departure and learn to sail on the existing ones.
• Standing rigging - professional
• Running rigging including clutches/blocks/sleeves/pulleys – professional Nah, DIY but only if required which is unlikely.
• Autopilot – professional - Nope, DIY
• Hydrovane - diy but look at Pacific Pilot instead.
• Stuffing box or dripless shaft seals – professional - Nope DIY
• Mattresses/cushions/linens – diy
• Watermaker - diy
• Through-hulls - diy

Upgraded
• Navigation electronics - professional/diy
• Inverter - professional/diy
• Batteries (LiFePo4) - diy
• Solar panels - diy
• Electrical power winches – professional - Why only going to go wrong. Stick with mechanical if RTW or spend ages in a remote location waiting.
• Alternator - diy just carry a spare.
• Microwave/stove/refrigeration/freezer - diy
• Navigation lights - professional/diy

Serviced
• Engine – professional, you must be able to service and fault find the engine
• Generator – professional
• Prop & prop shaft – professional/diy
• Rudder & housing – professional/diy
• Hatches/ports/windows – professional - DIY
• Woodwork/trim - diy
• Tanks (cleaning) - diy
• Plumbing - diy
• Heads - diy
• Anti-fouling - diy

You won't need a new mast or boom.

The answer is 3 months in a yard with 8 hour days to complete the above. However, don't do it on first purchase or you may have to do some again prior to departure. Use and learn what the boat has now.

Pete

[wholybee]

I think an important part of successful cruising is to be able to diy as much as possible. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have pros do it the first time, or if it needs done quickly. I don't think you could diy all that in 3 months, but if you spent enough money, pros could.(because more of them working at one time)

An important part of a purchase is the survey. Don't assume all that will need to be done, but look for a boat where most has been done already. It will be much cheaper to buy a boat that needs less work, than to do all that work yourself. The work you listed could easily double the original purchase price. It might be advantageous to find a boat that only needs diy work + new sails, and have a pro make the rigging, but you can install it yourself.

[stormalong]

You say nothing about your experience or preparing yourself for this cruise. The most important part of the boat is the captain and crew that sail it. What are your mechanical and sailing skill levels?

Some of the things on your list say to me that until now you have been an armchair sailor.

Get on the water and get some experience. Since your plan is to depart in seven years. start now with a smaller sailboat. In a few years you will be better able to answer many of these questions on your own instead of asking a bunch of strangers.

PS. Pete7 makes some very good responses to your list. I would add that you should buy your dreamboat at least one year before departure and sail it locally to determine what it needs and how to do it. I did that with my present boat 33 years ago and that was the fifth boat I was actively involved with or owned.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by stormalong

Get on the water and get some experience. Since your plan is to depart in seven years. start now with a smaller sailboat. In a few years you will be better able to answer many of these questions on your own instead of asking a bunch of strangers.

Yeah, with 7 years to go that's not bad advice, so much can change, (and undoubtedly will,) in 7 years.
There's an old tongue-in-cheek saying that's more geared towards boatbuilding, but in many cases still rings true with buying.
"To get the boat you want you have to build the second one first".

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by stormalong

You say nothing about your experience or preparing yourself for this cruise. The most important part of the boat is the captain and crew that sail it. What are your mechanical and sailing skill levels?

Some of the things on your list say to me that until now you have been an armchair sailor.

Get on the water and get some experience. Since your plan is to depart in seven years. start now with a smaller sailboat. In a few years you will be better able to answer many of these questions on your own instead of asking a bunch of strangers.

PS. Pete7 makes some very good responses to your list. I would add that you should buy your dreamboat at least one year before departure and sail it locally to determine what it needs and how to do it. I did that with my present boat 33 years ago and that was the fifth boat I was actively involved with or owned.

I’m an Industrial Engineer by trade and have been coastal sailing on and off for the last 10 years.

I’m not here to provide you my resume though, so let’s stick to the questions on hardware.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I’m not here to provide you my resume though, so let’s stick to the questions on hardware.

Fair enough.
That said, look at your own list.
If you subtracted everything you've listed from a complete ready to go boat you'd basically be looking at not much more than an empty hull/deck with its ballast and perhaps some tanks and bulkheads, cabin sole and the main wiring harnesses and some cabinetry in place.
With 7 years to go you should start now, (probably yesterday).
The hours are uncountable.
Working part time, (and if you have travel time to count,) you might spend weeks just doing a bunch of seacocks or varnishing/painting an interior.

Working full time?
Boat next door to your abode, with cover and steps leading up along with a garage/shop full of tools/workbenches that are out of the weather?
Or lots of driving to a yard with controlled access and little or no storage ability for much of anything and having to use a ladder for every trip up/down?
Those last two scenarios can be the difference between a lot of jobs that can be addressed concurrently, (with the time to sit in your "thinking chair" and stare/think/ponder the next step,) or one huge job requiring a high level of dedication and will seem overwhelming at times.
The time difference to completion will be amazing between the two scenarios.

[SailingHarmonie]

The idea of a “standard” refit is just plain silly. What needs to be done depends on how the boat was maintained. Boats can need major work 5 years out of the factory or be ready to go after 40.

Our boat is approaching her 30th birthday and has never had a “refit”. Why? Because she has had three owners who have all fixed and upgraded things when needed and as needed. She has been a full time cruising boat with liveaboard owners her whole career. She has been around the world—twice—and has close to 200,000 miles under her keel.

She has always had quality preventative maintenance, and prompt repairs. She does not need a refit now, and will not as long as I own her.

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I’m an Industrial Engineer by trade and have been coastal sailing on and off for the last 10 years.

I’m not here to provide you my resume though, so let’s stick to the questions on hardware.

Wow, that was rather rude. Don't you think that kind of information would have been useful in your initial post?

From your wish list and division of labor between DIY and professional I would never have guessed that you are an industrial engineer.

[Na Mara]

Speaking a little from personal experience you have about the right idea on the time needed. I bought a 22 year old 43ft that had not been updated at all from new but had otherwise been professionally cared for and was in excellent condition. I got some of the refit professionally done and did some of it myself. After 5 years I am now nearing the end of the list (partly due to time issues but also due to financing issues). Chargers, new cockpit dodger and tent, and new white sails are all that is left. Departure is in 2-3 years time.

It is a very good idea to spread out the refit over a long period and to use the boat under that period. That way you spread the costs but also learn what your boat needs. Each boat is different and have varying potential in a refit. Learn yours before spending lots of money on suboptimal solutions. That’s my advice to you.

[HankOnthewater]

Hi Wolf
I think making such list is good, but maybe premature as you have not got a boat as yet. Maybe some or many of the aspects of your boat might have not need all the work/expenses. It all depends how well such boat has been maintained, as Sailingharmonie explained.

Or there is another way of approach, one that worked for me:
- make a spreadsheet list like yours, but with replacing/repairing every single thing on the boat
- have a column with hours and 2 columns with costs, one for DIY and one with having it done
- when you check a boat out for purchase, fill in that list with the defects, days to be spent, and related costs
- then such list can assist you in making that purchase or run away from that boat
- repeat that process for each boat you are serious interested in.... until all numbers look good or acceptable, and you still like the boat
- buy that boat
- then start the work with using the list as a guide
- you can prioritise the work to be done, and then you can see an expenditure needed by month/year, and you have then a cashflow projection

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I’m an Industrial Engineer by trade ...

Definition of an engineer: somebody who makes precise guesswork, based on unreliable data*, provided by people with questionable knowledge. Never wrong. Likes tables & lists.

* The larger the sample size, the more trustworthy the data.
I guess, the N's justify the means.


Engineers are good at solving problems, but ...
If there are no problems, handily available, they tend to create their own.
For instance:
Conventional wisdom: If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
Industrial/Mechanical Engineer: If it ain’t broke, consider adding more features.

[mvweebles]

OP - list looks fine. Could quibble about some items - ground tackle system isn't listed but would obviously need attention. Adapting storage is another (e.g. building secure placement for gear). Communications in general. Dinghy including davit system.

I can only speak from my multi-year refit experience that started in San Francisco. We left Ensenada this past October with the Baja Ha Ha fleet. Currently in Mazatlan.

We left with a sizeable list of things undone. Had we not committed to leave with the Ha Ha, we would have delayed departure. List includes significant issues with charging system, watermaker, and extended features of navigation system (basics are all there). I'm glad we left - I've just grown accustomed to having chores each day.

For us, the most difficult leg of the journey was the first boat length - slipping docklines. It's easy to let "perfect" be the enemy of "good enough."

That said, some lessons learned:

• If it carries a warranty, delay install for as long as possible.
  
• Pre-purchase as little as possible, or at least be really careful about buying stuff you'll need later. Installs change, choices change. We ended up with a lot of new kit we sold for pennies on the dollar.
  
• Despite careful calculations and energy budgeting, we are consuming 50% more power than we thought we would. Related, being at anchor for weeks at a time in hot climates places a tremendously different load on your DC charging and storage system than imaginable.
  
• If a device requires configuration, it is at elevated chance of obsolescence. Wait on purchase as long as possible.
  
• Dinghy. I'm conflicted here. A nice RIB with 20hp OB is fast and fun. But it's heavy and an attractive theft target. And it's difficult to haul up a beach if that's in the cards for you. If you're a diver might make sense. If not, a small dink with 3.5 hp OB starts to make sense.
  
• Victron support model is tech support is provided by the retailer who sells the profuct. This means who you purchase from matters a lot. After many frustrating purchases through Amazon, I went with PKYS and have been happy with the experience. Cost differential is either zero or inconsequential.
  
• Adapting a boat to be comfortable full time in the tropics takes time and thoughtfulness. Awnings, fans, hatches are important. Cockpits are not always comfortable. Air conditioning is another big decision - when tethered to shore power only? Possible to run off LFP, but recharging the batteries is difficult.
  
• Speaking of recharging batteries, your list mentions "alternator as DIY - carry a spare." Not sure what type of energy demands you're planning to include, but if more than about 1.5-2.0 kwh/day (roughly 150 AH at 12v, which isn't much these days), you really need to think through the entire DC energy system. This includes very robust cabling and a high output externally regulated alternator. The overall energy system can take a significant amount of time and effort to get properly installed and configured for long term anchoring in tropical climate.
  
• As far as whether older boat plus big refit is cheaper than new boat, by far biggest bang for buck is in between - a well conditioned boat that you just need to update for your preferences. Note use of words "well conditioned" vs some reference to vintage. I've seen some remarkable older boats, and some PoS newer ones. A major refit incurs storage costs which really add up.

If I were in your shoes, I would pick a departure date and commit to it. I would then find a boat in excellent condition that meets my general needs. I'd make sure the stuff that cannot be easily changed are sound - anchor system is well thought out, dinghy storage and deployment is feasible, cockpit benches are long enough to sleep on, adequate tankage for fuel and water without Jerry cans, engine access is decent, refrigeration is adequate, etc. Frankly, if I were still into sailing, I'd probably just find an Amel in good condition. I'd use it a bunch and hold off making upgrades until I'd really bonded with the boat.

Good luck with your journey. Don't waste time.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

New to the forum, but not new to sailing.

The wife and I plan to sail the Caribbean/Bahamas and across the Atlantic from Florida in 7 years’ time (retirement age).

Looking to buy a 40-45 ft production boat 10-20 years old with a hull and deck in excellent condition (no rot, osmosis, joint leaks, etc). I plan to refit the vessel, per details below (some professional completed, some DIY).

Am I missing anything significant?

I assume even with “professional” installation of items indicated, it would still be cheaper than buying a dedicated new blue water vessel (HR, Najad, Contest, X)?

What timeframe to complete would I be looking at, given the scope below, on the hard, full time (8 hrs/day)?

New
• Mast – professional
• Boom (in-furling) – professional
• Sails : Jib (furling), Gennaker (furling), asymmetric spinnaker, storm – professional
• Standing rigging - professional
• Running rigging including clutches/blocks/sleeves/pulleys – professional
• Autopilot – professional
• Hydrovane - diy
• Stuffing box or dripless shaft seals – professional
• Mattresses/cushions/linens – diy
• Watermaker - diy
• Through-hulls - diy

Upgraded
• Navigation electronics - professional/diy
• Inverter - professional/diy
• Batteries (LiFePo4) - diy
• Solar panels - diy
• Electrical power winches – professional
• Alternator - diy
• Microwave/stove/refrigeration/freezer - diy
• Navigation lights - professional/diy

Serviced
• Engine – professional
• Generator – professional
• Prop & prop shaft – professional/diy
• Rudder & housing – professional/diy
• Hatches/ports/windows – professional
• Woodwork/trim - diy
• Tanks (cleaning) - diy
• Plumbing - diy
• Heads - diy
• Anti-fouling - diy

That list is quite extensive and very generic. It also speaks to someone who as Read too much "cruising world". Some of the "new" items on your list are just unneccessary. Why on earth would you replace the mast and boom on a 10-20year old boat? boom furling. Please don't all the items in the "new" section need to be evaluated against the specific boat you are purchasing. If you buy a boat that needs a new mast, I hope you are getting a hefty discount on the price of the boat. a new mast is easily $10-20k alone before its fully rigged! Power winches? again needs to be evaluated against the specific boat. Better to buy a boat that has most of this than trying to refit.

with the extensive list of items that you want a "professional" to do ( a "professional" in the marine industry is often a local guy that you are paying with a bit more skill than you, often barely more skill... In fairness there are a lot of really talented people too ) Your list of "professional" jobs could easily eat through a $100k budget before you're done.

That list could be done in a few months (if you can line everything up) or take 6-12 months on the hard

[JBP]

Obviously once you find your boat you will reasses what needs doing, but are you saying you want to ADD in-boom furling if the boat doesn't have it? Most people I know want to get RID of their in-boom furling because it is much too finicky and problematic. In-mast furling is a little better, some love it, some hate it, but I've never met anyone who like in-boom. The boom aka "head-banger" itself has to be oversized. The boom angle has to be EXACTLY right when furling, not too low nor too high or it gets jammed up.