Thoughts on a 1962 Columbia 29

[Columbia29]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Columbia29.

Thank you Gord May!

[wellin]

I had hull number 64 for a few years. Nice boat. Payed 1000 sold it for 3500.

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[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Columbia29

Thank you Don! We have a huge 22 and half ft waterline world indeed, especially when you are redoing it by the inch. I am putting together a post about the new projects, after long time of silence. How are your sailing adventures?

Inch by inch is how we get to know our boats! I've pretty much blown all the $ I had budgeted for the near term, so I love seeing you guys diving into the projects with the prospects of an even greater work of art at the end. My boat is not bristol, but it is pretty much ready for this spring and summer's Channel Island explorations with my family. I've been replacing rigging, improving my sail inventory a bit and I gave her a bottom job and a good look-over. (It really is a beautiful hull under the waterline, isn't it?) If you find yourself in southern California, come on by and we'll take her for a spin! We have Blue Whales, Humpbacks, Grey's, lots of dolphins... beautiful islands with sea caves, quiet coves, and a view of California 200 years ago... plenty of great adventures close by.

[appick]

Hey Fabio glad to see you joined in. Where was your crack on your hull? Was it on the leading edge of the keel? Was there some exploratory grinding involved in that repair? Has anyone had issues with hairline cracks in the gelcoat below the waterline?


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[appick]

Yea it sounds kind of odd but I'm with you guys they are as beautiful below the water line as they are above. Has anyone tried going to a trapezoid shaped rudder as opposed the the curve. I've been told there are benefits which is why many later modified full keel designs had them.


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[Columbia29]

Originally Posted by appick

Hey Fabio glad to see you joined in. Where was your crack on your hull? Was it on the leading edge of the keel? Was there some exploratory grinding involved in that repair? Has anyone had issues with hairline cracks in the gelcoat below the waterline?


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Hey Appick, thanks for inviting me. The crack was under the keel, at the bottom of the bilge. During winter storage they probably set the boat on a block just over the bilge, not the strongest point. I could see the light trough and saw the crack from inside. I grinded all the delamination from the outside and then filled it and reglassed it. I painted with epoxy barrier coat and antifouling.

This is a thing to be careful with C29s, having such a deep bilge you want to make sure to have the yard put the block in the right position during haulouts.

[Don C L]

Wow, that is really a shame. And completely unnecessary for a block to be put there. One thing about these hulls is that they do not flex when lowered onto their keels. Good tip to keep a close eye on how they block the boat.

[Don C L]

I took a closer look (finally) at the photos you posted. OUCH! In order to make that kind of crack in the hull they must have set the keel down on something soft (dirt, mud, soft wood) and then the blocks were positioned on something hard so that with time the boat's weight came to rest on the block on the hull, not the keel, as you said. That is another thing to watch in the yard, whatever is under the keel must be absolutely solid. Seems pretty basic, but not all folks in yards are keeping a close eye on these things...

[Don C L]

Oh, and the switch to a larger, more angular rudder, I am sure yields more turning power, but I am not sure it is enough to make me mess with perfection! Seriously, my boat seems to turn just fine, but the later, heavier models may find a justifiable benefit from the switch (or just addition of glassed-on, faired-in extensions on the original rudder.)

[appick]

Yea I find in fair weather it turns pretty quick. Although when coming into the dock I have to time my turn by putting the helm hard over when my mid ships is at my neighbors corner post. I thought squaring off the rudder might help.

It'd also be nice when running downwind in a big seaway. I found 4 hours at the helm running down wind in 10-12ft waves with winds 45-50knts gusts to 60 to be a pretty tiring experience. I came away thinking it suffered as many full keel boats do when running downwind of not having enough rudder. On most boats where the rudder is separate it has more leverage to move the boat, opposed to an attached rudder. Squaring off the rudder down low gives more surface area to where the rudder won't come out of the water in big waves, allowing a little more control. Or at least so I'm told...

Anyways onto another thought. How much rake or mast bend does everyone have? I think I read somewhere recently that it was supposed to be 8.5inches aft rake from the mast head to the mast base. I'm pretty sure I'm nowhere near that, this might account for my weather helm when it really starts to blow.

[Don C L]

Yeah it's true in a following sea with that much wind a boat will want to broach. The good news is our rudders probably won't snap off. If you have the conditions you had I think any boat will be a challenge to control. In those conditions I am not sure how much difference enlarging the rudder will make, but it's worth a shot. I saw a Pearson Vanguard that had its rudder removed and a spade rudder installed instead. It probably handled better but that's not something I'd consider. A skeg mounted rudder, yes, but then you are messing with the center of lateral resistance and the rig will need to account for that. BTW the rake my drawings from S&S show is 8 inches I believe. I'll check again to be sure. And that will affect things too.

[Columbia29]

I agree. Those conditions are a problem for almost any boat but the Columbia29 suffers it particularly. I had to compensate broaching on a broad reach and following seas for many hours at the helm and it's very tiring. This is nerve-racking especially at night when you don't see the waves and you can't adjust your steering according to the coming seas. I am planning to install a windvane autopilot and excess in weather helm can generate wear in the steering system pretty quickly, so I am very interested in way to reduce the weather helm.

Reefing and reducing sails helps a lot, I take weather helm as a way my boat is telling me it's time to reef. I am installing a deep third reef on my mainsail and ordering a storm jib, for bad situations.

I sometimes wonder about a different rudder. Increasing the size would increase the pressure over the rudder and the shaft (which is bronze on the C29). The effect would probably be good for manouvering in calm conditions, like the marina example, but too much turning power could be stressful for the boat in heavy air.

I am also thinking if it is convenient to add an adjustable split backstay. I have to modify the backstay anyway, because the central installation tube of the windvane system comes on deck where the backstay chainplate is attached. That could be a way to quickly add or release tension to the backstay.

[roverhi]

Originally Posted by appick

Yea I find in fair weather it turns pretty quick. Although when coming into the dock I have to time my turn by putting the helm hard over when my mid ships is at my neighbors corner post. I thought squaring off the rudder might help.

It'd also be nice when running downwind in a big seaway. I found 4 hours at the helm running down wind in 10-12ft waves with winds 45-50knts gusts to 60 to be a pretty tiring experience. I came away thinking it suffered as many full keel boats do when running downwind of not having enough rudder. On most boats where the rudder is separate it has more leverage to move the boat, opposed to an attached rudder. Squaring off the rudder down low gives more surface area to where the rudder won't come out of the water in big waves, allowing a little more control. Or at least so I'm told...

Anyways onto another thought. How much rake or mast bend does everyone have? I think I read somewhere recently that it was supposed to be 8.5inches aft rake from the mast head to the mast base. I'm pretty sure I'm nowhere near that, this might account for my weather helm when it really starts to blow.

With the fugitives from the telephone/power pole yard masts that these boats came with, you aren't going to get much bend without a lot of force. Rake is easy to dial in, however.

Gee, tiring to handle the helm downwind in 10-12 seas/40mph plus winds, how strange??? Full keels are usually directional stable. They aren't quick to turn or change heading. That's the virtue of the boats for passage making. They don't wander all over the place with the slightest bump by a wave or wind. That actually makes them way less fatiguing to helm for long periods in challenging conditions.

It also makes them a pain maneuvering in close quarters especially trying to turn into strong wind if the boat has a cutaway forefoot. Sometimes it's just not going to happen without huge prop rpm in the direction the torque will work for you.

A rudder that carries its width all the way to the bottom just makes sense. Never could figure out why most traditional/full keel boat's rudders that have rounded rather than squared off bottoms. Possibly a carry over from wood rudders that would be weakest to resist torquing at a squared off bottom. Full keel rudders are also unbalanced unless they have a horn at the bottom. Spade rudders are balanced to some extent and have some water force boost that makes them need less helm pressure to turn. Less force to steer but quite often way more steering input and frequency required to keep them on course.

[Columbia29]

Here some more destruction/reconstruction photos:

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Columbia29

I agree. Those conditions are a problem for almost any boat but the Columbia29 suffers it particularly. I had to compensate broaching on a broad reach and following seas for many hours at the helm and it's very tiring. This is nerve-racking especially at night when you don't see the waves and you can't adjust your steering according to the coming seas. I am planning to install a windvane autopilot and excess in weather helm can generate wear in the steering system pretty quickly, so I am very interested in way to reduce the weather helm.

Reefing and reducing sails helps a lot, I take weather helm as a way my boat is telling me it's time to reef. I am installing a deep third reef on my mainsail and ordering a storm jib, for bad situations.

I sometimes wonder about a different rudder. Increasing the size would increase the pressure over the rudder and the shaft (which is bronze on the C29). The effect would probably be good for manouvering in calm conditions, like the marina example, but too much turning power could be stressful for the boat in heavy air.

I am also thinking if it is convenient to add an adjustable split backstay. I have to modify the backstay anyway, because the central installation tube of the windvane system comes on deck where the backstay chainplate is attached. That could be a way to quickly add or release tension to the backstay.

Yeah, I haven't had my boat out yet in anything like that, but I imagine I'd probably have no main up, or a third reef maybe, if it's gusting to 60! As soon as we get a good storm around here I'll go check it out! I know I always had the bad habit of not reefing soon enough when running (with my old boat) because it didn't seem that bad, until I would broach and I'd find out how much drive that main was carrying. And it is a pain to reef in those conditions so I'd wait. Under those conditions I think the boat will be doing hull speed with just a jib or storm jib up.
I think you are right, roverhi, that the rounded rudder is a carry-over from wooden rudder days. My old C24 had a squared-off rudder and the same bronze rudder post, though a little smaller I think. I think the 29's rudder post would be up to the job if you added a corner to the bottom. But again as you mentioned, it is probably extra easy to overpower this design. Ours may be more sensitive to that. She's already on the tender side so more likely to lean heavily rounding off at the bottom of a wave. But even spade rudders can have problems keeping the boat straight in a broach. (And since I was on a big boat that had it's beautiful, big spade rudder snap clean off, I now don't find them so appealing except for racing.) With our boats, well all boats, the rudder becomes more of a brake when overpowered and then the rudder loses effectiveness due to the speed reduction. At least that is my take on things, but I am no naval architect. Oh and the mast rake can make a difference. I don't think tensioning the backstay will help, at least for this problem. I think that is for controlling the tension of the jib luff for better pointing ability, which can be useful though less so in cruising than racing of course. The rake should be there all the time. This all has me itching to get out in bigger weather to try the different sail combos and see how she responds! I just got a (practically new) full-battened main (for a Columbia 29 with the shield on it!) from Bacon sails and I am dying to try it out, but I am still waiting for the battens! The old main is batten-less for the old roller furling on the boom. It works ok, and will be a good spare. I also took off the antique roller furling and have returned to hank-on foresails. (Yeah I am old fashioned.) But she should point considerably higher now. I am also opting, for now, for a reef in the jib instead of a storm jib. I also got a used big genoa that I am dying to try out too. All I need is one free week and an extra pair of hands and I could get it all done!