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Old 28-05-2010, 19:26   #16
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HCH - how many bolts and how set? My little shooter has 22 bolts (11 pairs) over some 2900 pounds of iron; designed 1968, Sweden. Bet HCH has at least the same quality design. When I hear of a HCH dropping the keel I will start worrying, not before.

A traveler can be moved elsewhere. I like boats with the main sheet NOT crossing the cockpit - been hit once in a crash jib and once is enough.

b.
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Old 28-05-2010, 20:03   #17
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Yup moving but not an easy engineering mathematical task. Trying to stay close to spec.

I wear a kayak helmet when I go solo sailing, and believe me it works when you have been sleepless for a few days. I look mentally challenged coming into port but I don't care.

Looking over the number again. Still trying to find that magical size boat. I afraid 36-38 may be too big for my control. I'm only 145 lbs.

Lets see....hmmm...ordered according to specification calculation scores:

The Pearson 35 is rated highest score: 8/10 - nice but centerboards...I hate rattles and complexities under the water.
Cape Dory 36 Cutter score:7/10- suggested
Cape Dory 33 Sloop score:7/10
Cape Dory 30 Cutter/Ketch score:7/10
Morgan 382, 383, 384 Sloop/Ketch score: 5/10 actually on the cusp of not a good capsize #
Pearson 365 Sloop/Ketch score 5/10 - very close to the Dory 36 in specs. Dory is a bit better at the weather.

What do you all think of the PSC 31?
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Old 28-05-2010, 21:29   #18
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I added the HC 33 back in just because its so unique. Expensive but unique...
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Old 29-05-2010, 12:14   #19
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Cape Dory 30 as a ketch does not make much sense - you can still handle the sails in a 30 footer. A Pearson 365 is another story - I like this boat a lot, but the interior is very poorly laid out given the size of the boat. It is a great interior, just I can easily imagine an even better one in the same size of a boat.

NOw Cape Dory 36 I have never seen a ketch but I know they exist. Probably a nice balance then between the CD30 ketch and the Pearson.

The Pearson is shallower and will give you access to some sweet spots. But it is not very efficient upwind. CD 36 has a tad longish overhangs - pretty but not really required in an ocean boat.

Choices. BUt with the choices you have they all seem to be either good or very good, so do not worry.

BTW The size of the boat is not directly related to wheter you can handle her or not. I have handled a 54' cat and it was easy. Now I have been sailing a 36' Jeanneau and it is not. There are just many factors that contribute and deduct and the LOA is only one of them. Personally (!!!)

I would go for a ketch as soon as handling the biggest sail is a no-no-no in heavy conditions. The size of the hull, on the other hand, helps - because a bigger and heavier boat does seem to be more steady under my feet when I have to go on deck to run the business.


Any place on the net I can see a CD36 ketch?

b.
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Old 29-05-2010, 14:20   #20
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Barnakiel:

Ahh...yes. CD 36 Ketches DO exist. Here is one on the market recently.

1984 Cape Dory 36' ketch sailboat for sale in California

I ponder the ketch as I read other's rave about the balancing - which to me would be critical short handed. Also smaller sail areas to shift gears.

However, the debate still rages with internal grumblings when I think perhaps I might be in close quarters - doing terrible tacks back and forth in a busy dance. Looking at the INGRID 38 today Ketch w/ Cutter rig - some great prices - but the idea of a mizzen, main, staysail and header...makes my head dizzy and I will need to take 10x the calories. Do I have room? Whatever happened to simplicity - sloop rig with a removable inner forstay; traveler in the cockpit so I can reach it? As I said, I continue to think about it while I cling to my check book.

Size should not matter - and I mean that the other way. A breaking wave will brooch any boat if that breaking wave is 60% of the DWL. Narrow beams will right faster. Deck houses also affect righting. And side decks can trip a boat sliding sideways. But of course there are trade offs to all of this. No boat is perfect.

Anyway CD 36 Ketch or not - great boat.

Size again - OK, I'm also concerned about costs - maintenance, keeping etc.

Todays Monkey List in specification score order (out of 10 points). I've left off boats that I do not see on market. They are just too rare:

Endurance 35 – PH 8
Corbin 39 – PH 7
Cape Dory 36 7
Cape Dory 33 7
Cape Dory 30 7
Pacific Seacraft Crealock 37 6
Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34-1989 Model 6
Hans Christian 33 6
Alajeula 33 6
Saturna 33 – PH 6
Contessa 32 6
Pacific Sea-craft 31 6
Cape Dory 31 6
Morgan 382 5
Morgan 383 5
Morgan 384 5
Ingrid 38 5
Pearson 365 5
Rival 36 5
Southern Cross 35 5
Vineyard Vixen 34 5
Valiant 32 5
Pacific Seacraft Orion Mk II 5 (just because I like it)
Fisher 37 4
Cabo Rico 36 4
Vancouver 36 4
Cabot 36 4
Scanmar 35 4
Sabre 34 4
Rival 34 4
Seawind MK II 4
Pacific Seacraft Mariah 4
Seawind 30 4
Pacific Seacraft Dana 4 (just because I like it)

And those Motorsailer's I can possibly afford and like

LM 30 6
Gulf 32 4
Fisher 30 4
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Old 29-05-2010, 15:23   #21
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It seems to me you have done some reading and come up with a list of generally acknowledged good or reasonable boats. I doubt that anyone has a detailed knowledge of more than the odd one, so you are setting an impossible and meaningless task. In practice it is meaningless. Try to find one boat from amongst those which is in fact in good condition or better and at a reasonable price. If you are lucky you might find a few over a period. You like it buy it. Aint no such thing as perfect.
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Old 29-05-2010, 15:46   #22
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Have you considered a Cal Cruising 35?
Older boat but with good scantlings.
4'8" draft, Pilot house but no interior helm, which you could remedy if desired.
Little teak.
It has a very long keel with cutaway forefoot and a detatched spade rudder which does not match your desires.
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Old 29-05-2010, 16:15   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Have you considered a Cal Cruising 35?
Adalie: You mentioned the shortcomings, and I don't like any of the Cals. But I DO appreciate your bringing up another suggestion that I might have missed.
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Old 29-05-2010, 16:18   #24
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Chris:

Its not meaningless. I've gained a lot if insight from reading these posts here - boats I too soon rejected and others I hadn't paid enough attention to. And shortcomings in ones that I thought were good enough for me. The list has prioritized quite a bit. Its a matter of gelling.
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Old 29-05-2010, 16:25   #25
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Adalie:

Cal 35 Cruise - scored only about 3 out of 10 using my specification comparison sheet.

Doesn't score well for me in Velocity Ratio, SA/D, B/D, L/B, Motion Comfort, and Roll Period.
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Old 29-05-2010, 19:59   #26
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Ha!

The CD ketch in picture does not look ketch at all, more like a sloop with the mizzen added. I mean the main is SO tall ...

Re ketches manouverability - in my high one of the exercises was to endlessly tack our training ketch with the rudder freewheeling. If I can, anybody will. Sure, one must be a sailor, not a tourist.

What is the Velocity Ratio? And the roll period and motion comfort are fables most of the time. Look at who introduced the MC and then look at what values his boats get, then think about what the words bias and marketing mean.

In any case, I have never found the high MC boats to be any more comfortable than the low MC boats. Again, so much depends on the lay-out, sailability, etc.. Meaning - so what we get a motion comfortable boat if, e.g. she does not sail well in light winds and just bobs around while others heave less motion comfortable boats and will glide past you in you MC tub?

I love the movement of my boat UPWIND, but downwind (read - off the wind) she will roll your guts out. Now I have sailed a couple of ultra modern, flat bum, broad hips, boats - man they go off the wind like a sleigh. So, my way, if you are considering 'comfort', consider your dominant wind angle (and this, for the vast majority of round the world trips or even round an ocean trips is broad reaching and running...).

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Old 29-05-2010, 22:03   #27
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Well I suppose you can choose one tack and stay on that one all the time and be comfortable, but I'll take my chances since I'm not in any hurry. Of course any extreme should be eliminated. Too heavy Too beamy Too narrow Too costly...

MC does ends up being a rather useless parameter because most of the good boats that keep coming up in our discussions and on the boards that are recommended fall into a great range anyway. Some are borderline and forgivable, and the rest are trash and never are thought of. I think we have a pretty good list of reasonable candidates. Some I have not mentioned because they are pretty rare in conversation...Downeaster, Dreadnaught etc...they also don't tend to have much a lead. Some are home kits and you never know what you get.

Velocity Ratio:

VELOCITY RATIO = 1.88*lwl^.5*sail area^.333/disp^.25 / (hull speed)

"The numerator of the equation calculates potential maximum speed, using an empirical relationship. Boats with a generous sailplan and light displacement will have a velocity ratio greater than 1. Under powered or extra heavy boats will be less than 1."

My general optimal is between 1.04 -1.08 where hull speed is MAX VELOCITY aka 1.34 * DLW^.5
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Old 30-05-2010, 06:39   #28
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My point is this. If you were ready to buy and you suggest you are not then you have to find a good boat at a reasonable price preferably within a confined area however large you make that. You may well find that worth paying a premium for. At that point you will find that they are uncommon unless you want to spend considerable time and money on rectifying weaknesses.
Having done this and looked at some of the boats on the list you might as I did do the detailed research.
The Cabot is nice but you might find a ? on the builders skills and an early need for barrier coats ie osmosis. The Scanmar is a coastal boat. The Contessa is great but cramped.
When you are ready to buy and find a suitable candidate in practice having examined many in depth you will likely find you get what you pay for and your final cost will be a balance of size gear and comfort and how much you really want to spend. Realistically add a third on a good boat so your max is 75K. In the process you will decide size and what you will really do with her in practice not theory.
Good boats are rare and a compromise between use size and cash.
Instead of an abstract discussion on 35-40 boats when you are ready to actually buy one get looking and you might come down to a choice between 2-3 after looking for quite a while if you have some idea of what you are doing. Price condition and a survey will help you decide. Until then it is armchair sailing.
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Old 30-05-2010, 07:41   #29
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You have tooi many boats on yoiur list and you are being far too objective. Go look at lots of boats and buy when you fall in love with one.
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Old 30-05-2010, 11:12   #30
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clunkers vs. bling ;-)

I think - too few boats and too subjective. Why do you include only good boats? Chuck in a Bavaria or two ;-)))

If you select from a bunch of good boats, you will end up with a good boat and this is simply unfair! This is - selfish.

For gods´sakes go to a boat show or two and get some idea of what is NOT a good blue water thing.

;-)))
Love,
barnie
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