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Old 24-05-2014, 12:33   #31
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

I had a look at some of the higher revolution photos of the unturned boat. Clearly it shows the front two bolts look like they either sheared off , or were already broken, similarly for the aft most bolt. There is no signs of GRP damage around these

It suggests thats these bolts may have already failed before and the keel was attached by the centre bolts. When the keel was subjected to the forces involved in a big storm , the forces then pulled the remaining bolts through the grp.

Again, given the messages that were sent, it looks like those onboard were unaware of the extent of the keel attachment issue. Presumably they were taking water in through the keel bolts , probably through the ones that had already failed.

Presumably the crew were caught unawares as the keel detached, perhaps they were below, the broken windows /portlights suggest ( and the first does not have big windows) suggest she was thrown down on her leeward side.

The other issue, is that manhandling a 12 man liferaft. I mean are these sizes actually available in a valise. I would have thought they were all "canister " based. And if so where was the canister. I cant see how a canister would be manhandled over the size by one or two crew. And if the boat turned turtle, it would be near impossible to get it out.

Ive seen the crew described as cool and professional, but no other evidence advanced to back that up.

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Old 24-05-2014, 12:36   #32
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pirate Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

Funny how it only takes a disaster for folk to start demonstrating how much more superior their boat is...


Anyone here remember the last time a 'FIN KEEL' fell off a Beneteau First... I sure as hell cannot..
But... some may know better..
This reminds me of the thread about the French racer who's boat broke up in massive sea's approaching France.. lotta armchair sailors spouting about things they've never experienced..

Note the difference...
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Old 24-05-2014, 12:38   #33
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Hers a quite from the forum/thread mentioned



There's a reason we tend to focus on production AWBs. There's a lot of them out there. The reason it's not an oyster or something else is that in comparison it's a tiny percentage of boats produced.

The fact Is the first series has a good reputation , end of story. What happened here a d what was the lead up well never know.


Of course we could mentioned the youth of the skipper too

Dave


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There is a big difference between a cruising sailor and a racer. The cruiser is most likely going to buy a boat, have it checked out and commissioned, then take off cruising. The racer, such as the 47.7 owner, probably had the boat gone thru completely just before the start of the race. I have yet to hear of a Pacific Seacraft losing a keel out at sea.
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Old 24-05-2014, 12:44   #34
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

I just read an article on MSN News that said the windows were all shattered:
"A Navy swimmer found the boat's cabin completely flooded and its windows shattered"
Forget the keel for a minute. Shattered windows on a supposed blue water sailboat is just wrong. And if it is not a blue water boat, what was it doing out there?

I've delivered Beneteaus in the past - some as far as 1,500 miles on open water and they always performed well with no problems. In fact, they were some of the most trouble free deliveries, and I did several for the Moorings from the BVI's to the US mainland. That was 20 years ago, though, and the quality back then of the French built boats was allegedly better.
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Old 24-05-2014, 12:48   #35
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Originally Posted by deluxe68 View Post
There is a big difference between a cruising sailor and a racer. The cruiser is most likely going to buy a boat, have it checked out and commissioned, then take off cruising. The racer, such as the 47.7 owner, probably had the boat gone thru completely just before the start of the race. I have yet to hear of a Pacific Seacraft losing a keel out at sea.
Bear in mind that the Beneteau in question was a charter boat. Hence the racing crew will have little proprietary interest in the boat. Equally charter racing boats are worked very hard.

Given the few Pacific Seacraft that were made. I think probably Beneteau makes more in a weekend, you have to take the statisical evidence into account, The fact is keels falling out production boats are very rare. Where they have been investigated, there was always evidence of damage, modification or poor maintenance, ( scillies, Bavarias etc)

Hence damming a huge production run, on the basis of one to two unknown scenarios is hardly scientific .

I haven't seen any Beneteaus with hull deck failures, but seemingly all HC 36s are suspect it seems !!!!.


I think a slightly more scientific approach might be useful


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Old 24-05-2014, 13:13   #36
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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This forum agrees the only boat for 1000 miles off shore us a full keel ketch or yawl preferably less that 20 feet long, designed before 1956 and built in one of only three boatyards in the USA and is equipped only with a sextant and a chart hand drawn before 1812.
Silly me, I thought it had to have a steel hull.
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Old 24-05-2014, 13:23   #37
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Funny how it only takes a disaster for folk to start demonstrating how much more superior their boat is...


Anyone here remember the last time a 'FIN KEEL' fell off a Beneteau First... I sure as hell cannot..
But... some may know better..
This reminds me of the thread about the French racer who's boat broke up in massive sea's approaching France.. lotta armchair sailors spouting about things they've never experienced..

Note the difference...


I never said it's just about the keel but this seems to be the only place folks are trying to focus.

I never said anyone's boat was less than anyone else's.

But tell me this. Why are benetaus less than Tartans? Less than Moody's? Less than a Morris? Less than a S&S? Less than an Oyster?

Is it just the keel? Come on. You want to go offshore in a dinghy go for it but that totally misses the point if this discussion.

You want to just compare keels you missed the boat on this discussion
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Old 24-05-2014, 13:38   #38
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pirate Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

LOLOL.. the boat never set sail..
What we have is a Bene and the like basher who chose's to ignore the many Bene's... Shock.. Horror.. even an old Hunter or 20 that have made the W-E crossing with no problems..
Last year we had around 4 boats disappear approaching the Azores.. were they keel failures..?? we'll never know as searches revealed nothing.. not even a trace of the 70ftr with 7 people on board...
In this case a mega search was undertaken and photo's of the hull appeared.. but.. keel failure based on that evidence is a big leap.. especially considering the laminate damage.. to me its more a case of ripped out... but fell off.. I doubt it.
Its just so easy to point the finger at the manufacturer.. if there was a history as with the J-Boats..???
But for now its all smoke as far as I'm concerned
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Old 24-05-2014, 13:47   #39
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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My boat happens to be a traditional S&S design,with a long fin keel.But its mounted much more substantially.It is very wide where it bonds hull,allowing massive bolts to be placed side by side about 6in apart.Not only that but the keel is doublebolted down the trailing edge to bottom on 6'4in. draft.Like an 'L' bracket,much more resistant to side loading.No less than 10 bolts.Its no slug to windward either.
The above post suggests that it's less about the type of keel and more about how well it's designed and mfg. This adds costs, of course, which makes a higher quality boat more expensive, obviously. The question remains whether one is really buying add'l safety, given all the variables. My take is that a stronger boat can provide more of a margin when things go bad. Sorta like PLB's. Just because they are inferior to EPIRBS in several ways doesn't mean it may not improve your chances of survival.
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Old 24-05-2014, 13:54   #40
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Silly me, I thought it had to have a steel hull.

Yes, as an uneducated multihuller, how can You know anything about proper offshore boats

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Old 24-05-2014, 14:27   #41
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Re: The dTifference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Originally Posted by CaptTL View Post
I just read an article on MSN News that said the windows were all shattered:
"A Navy swimmer found the boat's cabin completely flooded and its windows shattered"
Forget the keel for a minute. Shattered windows on a supposed blue water sailboat is just wrong. And if it is not a blue water boat, what was it doing out there?
Before we start blaming the boat or the manufacturer, there are a lot of questions that need to be answered. I'm not experienced with ocean disasters like this, but some things just don't add up. Out of a crew of four, none of them could deploy the liferaft? Even if the liferaft was damaged/unreachable, why couldn't they have simply held onto the hull? It was still floating. And the windows shattered is puzzling as well. These windows are pretty darned small:

Were the crew intoxicated and all thrown out of the boat at once? Was there a propane explosion that shattered the windows? Did they fake their deaths for insurance purposes? I doubt any of these are true, but I'm trying to think of any possibility that fits.
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Old 24-05-2014, 14:40   #42
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
LOLOL.. the boat never set sail..
What we have is a Bene and the like basher who chose's to ignore the many Bene's... Shock.. Horror.. even an old Hunter or 20 that have made the W-E crossing with no problems..
Last year we had around 4 boats disappear approaching the Azores.. were they keel failures..?? we'll never know as searches revealed nothing.. not even a trace of the 70ftr with 7 people on board...
In this case a mega search was undertaken and photo's of the hull appeared.. but.. keel failure based on that evidence is a big leap.. especially considering the laminate damage.. to me its more a case of ripped out... but fell off.. I doubt it.
Its just so easy to point the finger at the manufacturer.. if there was a history as with the J-Boats..???
But for now its all smoke as far as I'm concerned

I'm not sure who you're referring to but if it's me let me state for the record I don't care what the manufacturer is. I do value your opinion. Like everyone's in the forum. If it's your opinion that benes are blue water boats and they are as well built as any then that's your opinion. And when you hit the water in yours I truly wish you a safe voyage. I would be interested to hear why these are blue water boats. I didn't buy one not because they aren't nice to look at but everyone I spoke with talked me out of it based on the specific criteria for sailing we had in mind, specifically blue water sailing. So why? And please dont just refer to the keel. Tell me about the hull construction. The rigging set up. The mechanical set up. Something other than disaster stats. Otherwise why wouldn't everyone buy one and spend the extra several hundred thousand on booze and women?!?!?!

Wait I mean LOLOL
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Old 24-05-2014, 14:41   #43
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Re: The dTifference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Before we start blaming the boat or the manufacturer, there are a lot of questions that need to be answered. I'm not experienced with ocean disasters like this, but some things just don't add up. Out of a crew of four, none of them could deploy the liferaft? Even if the liferaft was damaged/unreachable, why couldn't they have simply held onto the hull? It was still floating. And the windows shattered is puzzling as well. These windows are pretty darned small:





Were the crew intoxicated and all thrown out of the boat at once? Was there a propane explosion that shattered the windows? Did they fake their deaths for insurance purposes? I doubt any of these are true, but I'm trying to think of any possibility that fits.



On the basis of there being 2up and 2down, the two in the water would have struggled to get back to the boat in those seas unless on a long tether (but most folk use short). There's only have been the rudder to hold onto and that's like holding onto each side of a door, as somebody lurches it up and down. The guys downstairs, especially during quick flooding, would have made all effort to get out quickly and to the surface if they could. Once surfaced they'd have been moved away from the hull quickly too (only needs an arms length). In 15C water and those conditions, diving down to the upturned cockpit to get an extremely heavy 12man valise out of a cubby would be an extremely difficult task.
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Old 24-05-2014, 14:54   #44
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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I'm not sure who you're referring to but if it's me let me state for the record I don't care what the manufacturer is. I do value your opinion. Like everyone's in the forum. If it's your opinion that benes are blue water boats and they are as well built as any then that's your opinion. And when you hit the water in yours I truly wish you a safe voyage. I would be interested to hear why these are blue water boats. I didn't buy one not because they aren't nice to look at but everyone I spoke with talked me out of it based on the specific criteria for sailing we had in mind, specifically blue water sailing. So why? And please dont just refer to the keel. Tell me about the hull construction. The rigging set up. The mechanical set up. Something other than disaster stats. Otherwise why wouldn't everyone buy one and spend the extra several hundred thousand on booze and women?!?!?!

Wait I mean LOLOL
I like the last parts. Yep yep. Still trying to find our what makes a blue water boat. Luck maybe...

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Old 24-05-2014, 15:00   #45
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Re: The difference between an inshore and offshore boat. Would you take a boat l...

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Still trying to find our what makes a blue water boat...


... the Skipper
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