The Death of the Ketch ?

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

What if the boat is a center cockpit? In that case the mizzen is aft of the helm, but if it is ahead of the rudder post isn't it still a ketch?


S/V B'Shert

if you read thoroughly in researching these two types of sailing rigs and sailing craft, you will find the word/term HELM is NOT the operative word in any of the design and descriptive wordings in the proper definitions of the term ketch vs the term yawl.
the operative word is and has always been RUDDER.
please pay attention. thankyou.
it seems the trendy use of the term helm has been spread to include many definitions it is not.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

It's also quite common for a ketch to have it's mizzen mast behind the helm. Having the mizzen mast in a position that obstructs the view of the helmsman is not a definitive feature of a ketch. Actually, with the use of cables, gears, hydraulics or electronics a helm position can be designed to be located anywhere on a vessel,- even off the vessel if you like!

Of course. sailor1924 is correct in stating that a ketch is defined by the position of the rudder head (rudder post) in relation to the mizzen mast.

BTW Hudson, have you ever seen this excerpt from my website,...or anything similar?

Sail Propulsion - Revisiting a Mast-Aft Sailing Rig

d) Conventional booms excessively flatten the foot of the mainsail, and are often oversheeted, contributing significantly to the leeway forces. I once had a copy of a test on a Morgan 41' Out Island ketch , where upon removing the mainsail, the boat lost only 1/2 knot of speed, but cut its leeway in half (from 11 to 6 degrees). A staysail was then rigged between the masts in place of the mainsail, and the boat regained 1 knot of speed while retaining its decreased leeway.

??

[Tayana42]

Originally Posted by zeehag

if you read thoroughly in researching these two types of sailing rigs and sailing craft, you will find the word/term HELM is NOT the operative word in any of the design and descriptive wordings in the proper definitions of the term ketch vs the term yawl.

the operative word is and has always been RUDDER.

please pay attention. thankyou.

it seems the trendy use of the term helm has been spread to include many definitions it is not.

Zee, I was trying to be subtle and ask politely rather than blast in with "you're wrong."


S/V B'Shert

[CHAZ]

On a ketch the mizzen mast is within the 'construction water line' and the mizzen sail is a driving/propelling part of the divided sail plan. Like a yawl the ketch is quite trim friendly and does not deserve to die IMHO.

On a yawl the mizzen mast is behind the construction water line (later rudder post) and the mizzen sail has more balancing than driving properties (made for small fishing boats and later liked by singlehanders for easy balanced sail plan without auto pilot and/or wind vane). A yawl gains the drive from a sloop like sail plan with fore sails and big main sail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yawl
"The common definition of Yawl and Ketch using the rudder post does not reflect the nautical tradition and was created by much more recent developments of a handicap system for racing yachts."

Everyday something new to learn and wiki is not the end of all
but helps a lot.

Fair wind to all
Martin

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by CHAZ

...........................
................................
"The common definition of Yawl and Ketch using the rudder post does not reflect the nautical tradition and was created by much more recent developments of a handicap system for racing yachts."
.........................
Fair wind to all
Martin

"News" to me! It's always exciting to hear of old things that are new to me!
Thanks for the interesting history. I'll likely still use the contemporary definition, but it's good to be wise to history!

[dannc]

In Skene's original edition of Elements of Yacht Design, he stated, "The mizzen of the yawl is stepped abaft the rudder post..."

The first copyright for the book was in 1904.

The two paragraphs are,

The yawl rig comes next in speed to that of the cutter, and the ketch and schooner after that. American racing rules rates yawls at 93 percent of the figured rating, which is a fair index as to the speed as compared to sloops. The mizzen of the yawl is stepped abaft the rudder post and is useful as a riding or steadying sail. Its efficiency for propulsion, however, is slight. The back draft from the mainsail interferes with the mizzen drawing when on the wind, even with the sail cut as flat as possible.

The chief advantage of the rig lies in the reduction in length of the main boom, although this is very slight compared with a snug cutter rig with the mast at 2/5 of the water line from the forward end. The location of the mast forward, however, helps out the cabin arrangement

Later,
Dan

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by dannc

In Skene's original edition of Elements of Yacht Design, he stated, "The mizzen of the yawl is stepped abaft the rudder post..."

The first copyright for the book was in 1904.

Racing rules are older than that..

[Rustic Charm]

All this fuss over what's a ketch and whats a Yawl.

If I google Yawl sailing vessle and Ketch, and then look at all the pictures, the one thing in common every single time is that the Mizzen on a Yawl is on the back of the boat, the transom if you like. And with a Ketch it's forward. The term Helm helps and it really doesn't matter that the term is not in ancient dead sea scrolls or the like. Introducing 'what about a centre cockpit' is simly silly as on both a yawl and a ketch that is a 'centre cockpit' the cockpit is in the 'centre'.

The idea that the 'rudder' makes a difference seems to me to be more about trying to explain it the same as using where the 'helm' is. And the trouble with that is you can have a very obvious ketch but because the rudder stock is forward the mizzen mast, some will insist on calling it a yawl.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Racing rules are older than that..

Yes, they are.

Later,
Dan

[CHAZ]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

All this fuss over what's a ketch and whats a Yawl.

If I google Yawl sailing vessle and Ketch, and then look at all the pictures, the one thing in common every single time is that the Mizzen on a Yawl is on the back of the boat, the transom if you like. And with a Ketch it's forward. The term Helm helps and it really doesn't matter that the term is not in ancient dead sea scrolls or the like. Introducing 'what about a centre cockpit' is simly silly as on both a yawl and a ketch that is a 'centre cockpit' the cockpit is in the 'centre'.

The idea that the 'rudder' makes a difference seems to me to be more about trying to explain it the same as using where the 'helm' is. And the trouble with that is you can have a very obvious ketch but because the rudder stock is forward the mizzen mast, some will insist on calling it a yawl.

If you can show us a yawl with the mizzen inside the waterline please do.
Thats just about it.

Fair winds to you all.
Martin

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by CHAZ

If you can show us a yawl with the mizzen inside the waterline please do.
Thats just about it.

Fair winds to you all.
Martin

I don't know what you mean by 'inside' the water line?

[CHAZ]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

I don't know what you mean by 'inside' the water line?

Just about what it means.
Your waterline lengths is the part of your boat you try to anti foul and your mizzen is within this line so it seems you have a ketch.
A yawls mizzen is outside the "waterline" kinda behind and does not need anti fouling.
It is like the colregs, simple but different.
And I support coppercoat but I'm getting older too so who knows?

CF will have the answer but your LWL you'll have to find out yourself.

Fair winds to you and all the others.

And it's just this simple but...
Martin

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by CHAZ

Just about what it means.
Your waterline lengths is the part of your boat you try to anti foul and your mizzen is within this line so it seems you have a ketch.
A yawls mizzen is outside the "waterline" kinda behind and does not need anti fouling.
It is like the colregs, simple but different.
And I support coppercoat but I'm getting older too so who knows?

CF will have the answer but your LWL you'll have to find out yourself.

Fair winds to you and all the others.

And it's just this simple but...
Martin

I'm struggling to picture this ok, I know what the water line is, but I really don't know how the mizzen can be inside it or outside it? Especialy 'outside' the water line?

[Hudson Force]

I understand Chaz's operational definition for a yawl being identified by the mizzen stepped at a point aft of the waterline length; however this definition fails when you consider that it's not uncommon for a vessel's waterline (ketch or yawl) to continue to the full length of the vessel.

[markpierce]

The mizzen on a yawl looks like an afterthought, in contrast to a ketch.