Steel Boats and Welding

[barnakiel]

Re the steel-to-alloy joint. I think it is done with straps of blown-in material. Then the steel is welded to the steel side and the alloy to the alloy side. Seen this on a Dutch build.

Have seen alloy chainplates with steel inlays for the pin executed exactly this way too.

Another interesting technique is alloy-to-GRP and there is at least one boatyard doing just this. I have seen the design but did not have the chance to look up close. Imagine they rivet or bolt on the elements.

b.

[bangkaboat]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Re the steel-to-alloy joint. I think it is done with straps of blown-in material. Then the steel is welded to the steel side and the alloy to the alloy side. Seen this on a Dutch build.

Have seen alloy chainplates with steel inlays for the pin executed exactly this way too.

Another interesting technique is alloy-to-GRP and there is at least one boatyard doing just this. I have seen the design but did not have the chance to look up close. Imagine they rivet or bolt on the elements.

b.

Most steel/Alum small fishboats, yachts, etc., which have a transitional joint, are joined mechanically, with a rubber/fibre separating gasket. On larger/more expensive vessels, transitional material is oftened used. As was mentioned the materials are explosion welded together. It is sold under names such as "deltacouple" & "deltaclad". Most sites have a lot of product info. & it is well worth researching, if it interests you. Very expensive!

[chala]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

I'm sure your frenchman will agree, although he has a habit of not showing up where promised...

I am sure you will better The Frenchman if not in practice, at least in words.
There are some good posts worth debating in this thread, sadly too much nonsense by the original poster destroyed the value of this thread.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by chala

...
There are some good posts worth debating in this thread, sadly too much nonsense by the original poster destroyed the value of this thread.

Then contribute in a positive way, debate them and stop criticizing / complaining, or find your merry way out to sea...

barnakiel and bangkaboat have recently added some interesting sauce into this mix. I'm listening...

[Laidback]

One may need to get a wider appreciation of steel sailing boats by going further than the PNW. The Dutch are long regarded as having extraordinary expertise in designing and building fine steel sail boats.

Here is one of Henk Tingen's beautiful boats, built in Holland (the Nederlands) professionally 32 years ago and still in TOP class condition.

[barnakiel]

I have seen this one:

1995 Custom Cutter Rigged Ketch Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

up close. Cream.

Dutch design, dutch built.

Money issues aside, top of my wish list.

b.

[SaltyMonkey]

(melt)

*sigh

[ConradG]

Haidan,
Concerning spatter with the mig, I'm not sure what you were using for gas but the welding supply company that I use has a mix made to help. Argon, helium, co2. They make you lease insted of own and of course it's another expense associated with consumables...There are also 'anti spatter' sprays that do help but again, add to the cost. There are other tricks that help but rquire a machine capable of fine adjustment which many aren't. If you can get the heat/wirefeed speed adjusted correctly you can get a "spray" deposit. The wire shouldn't be contacting the parrent metal or the puddle but should be vaporized by the heat before reaching the weld. It is a point of adjustment just before burnback that causes sticking to the tip (that anoying consumable!) which requires a clean liner and drive wheels as well as a machine that is consistant in it's feed. You will hear the difference when you "get it". Everything smoothes out. But it also requires more heat so a faster travel. Inceodently it is my understanding that spray arc mig welding gives the best penatration possible, better than tig or stick. Not really a concern as any method can produce welds that are stronger than the parrent material anyway.

Your point about lugging around the mig and it's gas is the primary reason many builders use stick, especially on the interior plating of a framed (non Brent) boat where thin material is used and short welds are nescessary to keep distortion and the 'starved horse' look at bay. Much more convenient to drag around one lead with a pocket full of rod and your chipping hammer unless you rig up an overhead traveler for the machine or the gas anyway if you are using a spoolgun (which presents fatigue issues at the end of a long day of wielding the five pound thing). With steel, stick has some real life advantages.

Brent boats have comparably very little welding. That the man himself can be had for dirt cheap in relation to any going shop rate (three to four times that) is well worth considering if a 'Swain" is what you are after. A little food and drink would be worth ten times it's weight in gold for the brain picking and wealth of experience in the design and construction knowledge you could draw from! Talk about a pertanent welding class! A one on one tutorial!

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by ConradG

Brent boats have comparably very little welding. That the man himself can be had for dirt cheap in relation to any going shop rate (three to four times that) is well worth considering if a 'Swain" is what you are after. A little food and drink would be worth ten times it's weight in gold for the brain picking and wealth of experience in the design and construction knowledge you could draw from! Talk about a pertanent welding class! A one on one tutorial!

I agree. I am perplexed by the comment that he is expensive, and the negativity there.

btw, why the added helium in the mix? What metals? Why not straight co2 and argon?

[Yachts66]

Like Argon, Helium is an inert gas, but unlike Argon it is very light (helium balloons, right?) so it tends to float up away from the weld and therefor does not shield the molten metal as well as Argon and thus you have to use more of it and thus it is more expensive. There is no reason you can't buy your own gas bottles and save the rental fee. Generally, they will trade you one of their full ones for your empty one for the cost of the gas. The down side is if they give you a bottle that is near it's expiration date you get stuck with the hydrostatic testing. You can also use straight CO2 without the Argon and save some money, but it does not shield quite as well.

If a person is really into wire feed, but does not relish the idea of pulling the cumbersome cart and bottle around, one solution would be a push/pull gun or a spooling gun. Both can be had in lengths up to 50' which eliminates a lot of cart lugging. Push/pull guns are very good to use with aluminum by the way.

Regards,

Thomas

[ConradG]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

btw, why the added helium in the mix? What metals? Why not straight co2 and argon?

I use co2/argon mix. precisely because it spatters less than the cheaper straight co2. The proprietary mix is suposed to be cleaner. I've never used it.

Because of the alloy content of stainless spatter seems to seek it out like flypaper especially when welding to non stainless mild steel. Generally people use regular steel wire (for most alloys) because it is cheaper. My suspicssion is that the more expensive stainless wire would end up with less spatter sticking to the stainless and that which does wouldn't be depositing rusting ferrous material to it also. Personally I would keep stainless as far away from steel a possible in the saltwater/air environment and isolate them in the least if stainless must be used. Certainly not weld them...But, on Brent boats the material is thick so loss to electrolitic and galvanic corrossion isn't as big a threat and perhaps the added bennefit of not having to keep paint on the wear points is worth it. But personally I would do everything possible to keep it away under the waterline where the two are contantly submerged in an electrolite.

[Yachts66]

On my Roberts, I had a toe rail made of 304, stanchions of 304 and a crash plate of 316. I think the builder used the 304 because it's a lot cheaper. I would never use 304 on the deck of a boat, it does rust a bit. If you use mild steel wire on stainless the weld will rust just like.....well....mild steel! So, what's the point of using stainless if you're going to weld it with non-stainless wire?

Regards,

Thomas

[ConradG]

Originally Posted by Yachts66

On my Roberts, I had a toe rail made of 304, stanchions of 304 and a crash plate of 316. I think the builder used the 304 because it's a lot cheaper. I would never use 304 on the deck of a boat, it does rust a bit. If you use mild steel wire on stainless the weld will rust just like.....well....mild steel! So, what's the point of using stainless if you're going to weld it with non-stainless wire?

Regards,

Thomas

I guess the same point could be made in reverse. What's the point of using stainless wire to weld stainless to non stainless? There is an interface in iether situation (and a physical and electrical connection which some want to avoid). However your point is good for other reasons, primarily that most wires have a higher carbon content than the mild steel that is being welded and the higher carbon content wants to rust more. Certainly where one is welding stainless to stainless it would make no sense whatsoever but I believe Haidan was speaking of welding stainless to mild steel on corners and such as trim where paint easily wears off.

[Yachts66]

Yep, you're right welding with mild steel wire at the transition would make more sense, but I was thinking more about the stainless to stainless welds when I wrote what I did.

BTW I ran the paint up well above the welds on my toe rail and that seemed to help a bit.

Thomas

[SaltyMonkey]

Y66, good stuff. Yes understand straight co2 vs co2 + argon and related costs. But what is the added helium used specifically for e.g. co2 + argon + helium? If the gun is going, seems to me helium component would always be pressured in the shield and not floating away.