Steel Boats and Welding

[haidan]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

The reason I'm asking is because of the availability in yards for 220v.

I saw a miller

Miller - Stick Welders - Maxstar® 150 S

but dont know if any good.

Latex - all I remember is how it peels after a good many years. Can't imagine what implications are in boat w moisture?

My boat and every other brent boat I've been in are very dry boats, it's due to the insulation, there really no moisture that get's in unless it comes in through the door, or vents (or leaks) or something which are easy enough to prevent, and also (eventually) the foam is all hidden behind the interior anyway.

[haidan]

I saw a few pictures of your boat in Ireland, looks like it's in great shape considering it's over thirty years old. Too bad about the divorce.
I know of one Brent boat that was actually stolen and sold to the scrap yard to be cut up. He was almost to the sandblast and paint stage. If that makes you feel any better.

Originally Posted by vic debeer

Hi,
Short of giving you a course in basic welding, suffice to say that welding can be done by a 110 volt machine just as well as with a 220v or 380volt. Welding machines are merely a step-down transformer that drops the voltage down to a range of 22-28volt, but increases tha amperage to a workable level .... for thinner wire or stick, in a range of 90 amp to as much as 180 amp. The only difference with the 110 or 220/380 volt machines are that you have more range. Look at website: www.fezela.weebly.com/home.html.
This website covers the refit of sailboat Fezela, one of 2 boats that was build by myself and a very good friend (1979). We build 2 boats side-by-side and both were sold in divorce settlements...groan. My old boat is undergoing a refit in the UK. Both huls are still perfectly sound and in excelent shape.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by haidan

My boat and every other brent boat I've been in are very dry boats, it's due to the insulation, there really no moisture that get's in unless it comes in through the door, or vents (or leaks) or something which are easy enough to prevent, and also (eventually) the foam is all hidden behind the interior anyway.

Unless you go around and around 360 I assume in a barrel roll

[haidan]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Unless you go around and around 360 I assume in a barrel roll

Yes but the thing that is really going to rot plywood, wiring, peel paint is the prolonged exposure to damp damp damp all the time.

[osirissail]

Never under estimate Mother Nature's ability to permeate the deepest bowels of your vessel with salty air. Maybe in a dry land-locked lake or river it is different. Out here in the oceans after a few years of boat flexing and pounding through the seas moisture gets into areas totally unexpected. Flex a painted/coated sheet of metal "x-many" times and the coating will separate away. Pinholes in paint/coatings will allow molecular water to work it way to the metal and eat away until large flakes of paint/coating blister and peel away. Constant vigilance is needed to stay ahead of corrosion and rust.

[SaltyMonkey]

So, we've learned through these posts that steel as a material is approachable, and that an average layman or monkey like myself can handle most building situations with relative ease and simplicity. We learned that it is relatively affordable, and we spent time discussing the simplicity of "origami" as a means to make that happen. We've learned that the integrity (e.g. solid hull / no backing plates for example) and safety gains by steel far outweigh fiberglass and wood complexities. We also see that maintenance is about the same in terms of time and effort, and that a careful eye and discipline must be applied in the case of steel (although there are ways to cover your bets - epoxies, tar, foam, paint etc).

On the other hand, building steel boats w/ great skill and with access to an abundant of quality resources seems to be centered to the PNW or N. It appears to me that not only are the materials to be found and scrounged more easily there, but the community and network of personal connections seems to be centered there.

Finally, buying a used steel boat has certain risks in that each boat has been manufactured by different individuals and organizations, and perhaps different designers. Each boat must be looked at very carefully and with professional skill/help during the buying process, and there is really no testimonial user base to back up sailing ability.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Finally, buying a used steel boat has certain risks in that each boat has been manufactured by different individuals and organizations, and perhaps different designers. Each boat must be looked at very carefully and with professional skill/help during the buying process.........

Agreed. My meager experience says that it is pretty damn tough to find a good steel boat surveyor, and if he really took the time to look at the hull in great detail you probably could not afford him. Remember, water tests the ENTIRE hull structure, ultrasound tests in spots. You can't "test" every 3 inches on the hull. You are getting a statistical measure of what is there. You could still have some bad spots that were missed.

Perhaps you should consider getting the best metal boat surveyor you can and, once he has given it a good pass, then spend at least 24 hours getting at every possible spot that you can, especially those spots that are really, really tough to inspect.

Either that or go for it and accept the risk that you may have to do some plating in the future.

[bangkaboat]

1/8" 7018? I'm talking about when the "stick" is up in the 1/2-3/4" range!

LOL! No such thing!

Now, I'll confess, I've never done any ship building. My uncle used to, though. He did retire from that more than 20 years ago, so maybe things have changed since then. NO. We've been shooting wire in the shipyards & drydocks for quite a while now.

SMAW is still used, but not when production welding, unless stick welding stainless. We use FCAW, btw, not GMAW(MIG).

In any case, the idea that stick welding is somehow not up to the task of welding metal as thick as MIG processes can handle is simply not the case.

Nobody suggested this. Why would they?

[waterworldrob]

Anyone contemplating a steel boat should absolutely look into a Brent Swain design.. I don't have one but have seen several nicely built, and quickly too... Hitting a submerged container at sea can make you a statistic in a wood or FRP boat, it will only scare the crap out of you in a steel boat. Dented boats can continue sailing. I have a ReadyWelder, a battery powered welder you can do your own repairs with without a gen-set..

[boden36]

I remember reading in one of Alan Lucas's books ( I think it was entitled 'Cruising Australians') about a circumnavigator whose steel yacht somehow became sandwiched beyween a runaway freighter and an immovable wharf.
He completed the second half of his trip with his yacht significantly narrower but still seaworthy.
Regards, Richard.

[topi]

Hi all,
I'm new to this forum. I'm also facing the same kind of problem as SaltyMonkey, I want to get sailing and feel like steel is the right choice for blue water cruising. I've been looking around different boats here in Netherlands, and one design I really like is Van de Stadt 34. I took one for a test sail under light wind, and was able to make her go around 45 deg off TWS and still got 3 knots upwind. That's a decent speed, and a lot of long-keel GRP boats won't be able to beat that.

Now, my question is, how do I check the status of the boat? The owner says that the interios have been built in the hull in such a way that first they spread 7 (seven) layers of 2-component paint, and then they applied sikaflex and plywood on top of that. So far I haven't been able to see underneath the plywood, since that would mean breaking some things. There was some drops of water in the bilge, I don't know how that would have ended up there?? Otherwise the interiors seem to be in perfect shape. The boat was built in 1993.

I went to see another VdS 34 boat, that had some black silicone substance poured into the keel area. Is this normal? The owner told me it keeps the moisture out and fills up every small hole (the keel was constructed by pouring hot lead inside it after the keel was welded inplace). The keel had a serious problem, though: by judging with naked eye, the keel was at least 5 deg off the centerline. It would mean that the starboard tack would be really different from port tack, and I probably would freak out because of that.

If I would want to fix that keel, how much would that kind of operation cost? I guess it'd be more expensive than renewing the rigging/stays.

topi

[idpnd]

Be wary of bilges/keels that have been filled with concrete or foam, that's quite common practise on steel boats when nearing the end of their lifespan. You also have no idea what's going on underneath. There's one next door to mine that was fibreglassed as an emergency measure, now the rust is popping through the fibreglass and the hull is pretty much wrecked. I'm in Nieuwpoort BE by the way, spent a lot of time sailing in Zeeland during childhood.

There is a recognised technique of sealing off the lead in the keel and filling it up with oil, but it doesn't sound like this is the case here.

2-component paint, and then they applied sikaflex and plywood on top of that

That doesnt sound too bad, there's a religious war on about isolation of steel above the waterline, but to my knowledge most boats are foamed out with or without prior epoxy coating, and when you take off this foam decades later the steel underneath is usually dry and rust-free.

I hadnt heard of sikaflex being used in such quantities inside the boat, but on mine the teak deck is glued onto the (painted) steel with sikaflex and that seems to be fine (2 decades).

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by bangkaboat

In any case, the idea that stick welding is somehow not up to the task of welding metal as thick as MIG processes can handle is simply not the case.

Nobody suggested this. Why would they?

That is precisely the suggestion that I was responding to.

[SaltyMonkey]

topi - the black substance might be tar coating. I'll let the experts speak to that technique, but I have seen this applied to the full interior of a hull, with foam then applied above the bilge area.

[bangkaboat]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

That is precisely the suggestion that I was responding to.

I didn't note a suggestion such as this, however, perhaps you are not understanding these processes?

GMAW - "MIG" is distinct from FCAW, though both are wire processes. one is normally limited in material thickness when using GMAW. The shipyards use FCAW, not GMAW(unless for aluminum, stainless projects, etc.).

Example: When repairing a damaged section of a ship's hull, the fitter/welder team, when fitting the new plate(s), frame section, bracket, etc., will usually tack with SMAW(stick). A production welder will then weld the seam using a "suitcase" with FCAW w/CO2 shielding. Handrails & other minor welds may be completed by stick - saves having to bring a production welder & equipment to such a small job - but the vast amount of welding is done with FCAW. CO2 rate, while 20 to 35CFM in a shop application, may be running at 50 to 60 CFM, when welding in a shipyard/drydock. It takes a fair breeze to remove the protection of the gas shield(CO2) & wind barriers are often erected to protect the project area. Yes, if there is too much wind, one must switch to SMAW, usually 7018 in North America, which slows production to about 1/3rd, at best.