Steel Boats and Welding

[ConradG]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

I'll have to get a complete list of Colvin designs and look around.

Looked at a junk rig 27 Norsea about 2 months ago. Always wanted a junk since my days idolizing Hasler and JESTER. Benefits of reefing and being able to build your own sails. On the bad though - whipping mast, more windage/top heavy due to thicker mast, no headsail for heave to (you'll have to add something), don't point well. I rejected this one mainly because the engine was way under powered and not well maintained to my standard and where I want to go. And the mast was retrofitted so I didn't trust all that weight aloft being basically a solid wooden telephone pole. Interior was sparce and gutted. Needed work in there but I dont care. I need to see everything.

The listing for this Ganley looks interesting though

I think you have a bit of misinformation here. Not all junk rigs are without headsails. But, a straight luf, especially on a flat sail that protrudes beyond the mast (and therefore needs no rounds cut into it to get it beyond the mast and it's eddies) is more eficient to the wind than a slanted one. Not all junks are shroudless. The Chinese ocean going junks had stays as do all of Colvin's designs whether western HULL or Junk HULL(he has many designs that utilize the junk rig in both hull types).

In the first part of his book, Cruising Wrinkles, Mr Colvin discusses trials and comparisons of rigs. It might be of interest to you. Also read Voyage Of The Liberdad by Joshua Slocum (yes, the same one) who was stranded in S America and built a little Junk and sailed his wife and family home. He has quite alot to say for the rig also. It's available online for free. I found it one day and read all day.

As for heaving to, I just finnished Lin and Larry Pardey's Storm Tactics which is about just that. In it they have a little section on heaving to in a junk. The boat they refferenced was like Annie and Pete Hill's Badger, a two masted junk with no headsail. The owner says there are two methods he uses, one is to let the sails (reefed) out to where they would luff if they could (but they can't cause they're flat and battened and there you be. The other is to sail too close to the wind. The sails keep trying to draw but the hull is stalled so there's no forward movement. If I remember correctly Tom Colvin speakes of Chinese hulls lying 4 points to the wind when under bare poles. With any of them and a sea anchor rigged with a bridle as Lin and Larry discribe in length in their book, I imagine forward motion could be stopped and the boat held at 50 degrees to the wind to create the protective slick from leward slip.

Check out Tom's site. He has many designs.

[SaltyMonkey]

What you mention is of course all true and not unknown to me. However, the luff issue is I think invalid, as you do need a bit of a dart to be able to make windward sails. Not so easy making those cuts. Easier to make flat cuts, which is the "advantage" of having junk rig. you can make sail easy yourself. Then there is chafe "around" the mast that you need to be especially concerned about.

Yes head sails on some junks. This one had nothing rig'd and no room for it to be added effectively. Mast had been retrofitted forward. Too heavy in my opinion. Shrouds were also added which kills the great downward wind ability (laying out the boom for offwind) We're speaking of a specific boat that was not set right from the start to be a junk. There were other things modified on this vessel that I felt were "bookish" and second source - based on old readings and other ideas that were not necessarily helpful and could prove a danger. Just to be clear, I'd be very wary of any boat that had been retrofitted off the original design intentions of the NA - for safety and for sailing ability.

Lin and Larry's technique, as much as I respect it, is not simply "heaving to" and it isn't without drawbacks as it relies on a sea anchor - setting/adjustment, chafe, large forces, retrieval alone while you are solo. Its not a "Jesus" technique that will applied to all storm problems especially short term or minor ones. Yes, you don't necessarily need a headsail for it to work correctly.

I know about Slocum account and his praise. I know about Annie's boat. But historically there is just as much "bad news" regarding junks as vessels. Massive losses at sea etc. And you just don't find that many junks out there to be focusing on it as a design. i think there is a reason.


Here are some self-links:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-rigs-482.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-rig-9370.html

PS> I dont want no big topping boom to fall on my head either...

[Jim Cate]

FWIW,

I'm a bit surprised to have not seen any of the Van der Stadt metal boat designs mentioned above. They come in many sizes and styles, are IMO better looking and far better sailing than any of Bruce Roberts efforts, and can be purchased as computer-cut kits of panels.

One well known example (in a somewhat larger size) is Evan and Beth's "Hawk" which is an V der S Samoa design in aluminum.

Certainly worth looking at if you decide to build in metal.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Pt Stephens, NSW, Oz

[SaltyMonkey]

Van de Stadt designs has some pretty wonderful stuff

but time for a slap back into reality

Diesel Ducks Home Page

[haidan]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Van de Stadt designs has some pretty wonderful stuff

but time for a slap back into reality

Diesel Ducks Home Page

I have a friend with a Juna stretched to 40' and built out of steel, Buehler has some pretty simple designs but if you're going to build I highly recomend using the frameless origami technique, it's just way way faster, you sort of have to see it to believe it, but it cuts out lofting, building any sort of jig or frames and seriously cuts down on the amount of welding done on the hull and because of that and because it's all bent slightly the hull is as fare as it could be. I don't know why people don't do it more for steel they've been using the same technique for aluminium for... since they started building aluminium boats. On my 36' hull theres only about 80 feet of weld on the hull and the rest is all a nice gentle curve.
Here print this out, glue it to some card and fold it up

[idpnd]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I'm a bit surprised to have not seen any of the Van der Stadt metal boat designs mentioned above. They come in many sizes and styles, are IMO better looking and far better sailing than any of Bruce Roberts efforts, and can be purchased as computer-cut kits of panels.

Jim, I had actually mentioned van der Stadt's WIBO above, I got a rave review of some guy who had one

[SaltyMonkey]

haiden: I looked at every picture on the MOM site. I'm totally transfixed by the process. It did take quite a bit of time though. The labour $ look big. Lots of small things need to be "glued" on and cut. 500 tabs alone! So, its not just the hull itself, it's all the dre$$ing.

I have no idea how much a boat like that would foot $. But I love the designs and construction method.

* * *
Learning to weld. For the record, community college my way are either too far away or have temporarily suspended welding programs. Another option to learn is to take lessons from artistic organizations or artists that offer lessons privately. I'm looking into taking a few weekend intensives in TIG, MIG, and torch. I think that would be enough to get a decent exposure.

[Stillraining]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

haiden: I looked at every picture on the MOM site. I'm totally transfixed by the process. It did take quite a bit of time though. The labour $ look big. Lots of small things need to be "glued" on and cut. 500 tabs alone! So, its not just the hull itself, it's all the dre$$ing.

I have no idea how much a boat like that would foot $. But I love the designs and construction method.

* * *
Learning to weld. For the record, community college my way are either too far away or have temporarily suspended welding programs. Another option to learn is to take lessons from artistic organizations or artists that offer lessons privately. I'm looking into taking a few weekend intensives in TIG, MIG, and torch. I think that would be enough to get a decent exposure.

Come on up ...Ill teach ya....I'v always got stuff that needs welded on

[nitpik]

SaltMonkey:
I have been sailing a slightly modified Tom Colvin "Doxy", mostly single-handed, since 1988. She is 41'LOD, and 50'LOA. Gaff-rigged schooner. 17.3 tons reg.
Be glad to share my experience/opinions regarding steel hulls in general, or this particular design of Tom's.
~ David

[SaltyMonkey]

Stillraining - I would think you need someone GOOD for your projects. Nothing worse than a SaltyMonkey beginning weld!

nitpik: 41 ft single handed GAFF rig. Boy, you got stuff there nitpik. fill us in!

[SaltyMonkey]

What I should do is rent a warehouse space in Oakland, invite a bunch of artists to a boat building party, hand out MIG welders and let them have a go at it.

By midnight, we'd have the hull complete and engine installed. By 5 am the mast would be mounted. At 6am after breakfast, I'd be headed north.

[Stillraining]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Stillraining - I would think you need someone GOOD for your projects. Nothing worse than a SaltyMonkey beginning weld!

Thats what grinders are for..

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

What I should do is rent a warehouse space in Oakland, invite a bunch of artists to a boat building party, hand out MIG welders and let them have a go at it.

By midnight, we'd have the hull complete and engine installed. By 5 am the mast would be mounted. At 6am after breakfast, I'd be headed north.

[SabreKai]

I'm curious about the origami method. How wide was the plate for your 36 footer Haiden?


Sabre

[haidan]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

haiden: I looked at every picture on the MOM site. I'm totally transfixed by the process. It did take quite a bit of time though. The labour $ look big. Lots of small things need to be "glued" on and cut. 500 tabs alone! So, its not just the hull itself, it's all the dre$$ing.

I have no idea how much a boat like that would foot $. But I love the designs and construction method.

* * *
Learning to weld. For the record, community college my way are either too far away or have temporarily suspended welding programs. Another option to learn is to take lessons from artistic organizations or artists that offer lessons privately. I'm looking into taking a few weekend intensives in TIG, MIG, and torch. I think that would be enough to get a decent exposure.

Yeah I don't know why they welded in so many tabs, I only used them on the ceiling all the rest of my firring strips are attached to the 1x1 angle iron stringers which is no extra work at all.
There's about 10000 dollars worth of mild steel, 3000 plus or minus or so for all the stainless trim, 5000 for paint and sprayfoam, if you build it quickly like MOM you won't have to sandblast, as long as you get wheel abraded and shop primed steel to begin with as they did, they just took care to clean and paint all the spots were the shop priming got burned off. A new engine and transmission will cost you 10000 half that for a good used one. The carpenter/shipwright who did interior of MOM, he's done many many of these boats, said a basic rough interior, nothing fancy would cost about 5000 for him to do it. He said last time he got a quote for a new rig (that's jut he mast, boom and stays) for one of these boats it was something like 24000, I spend under 2000 for my mast, boom, standing rigging and sails, like everything if you scrounge and source out the good deals, one can save a lot of money, same can be said for all the stainless trim, scrap yards are your friend. There's contact info on the MOM site for those folks, they sell a few disks with lots and lots of pictures, how they put there awesome little reefer unit together, Alex, here sells a video of a hull going together Origamiboats: The Art of Frameless Steel Boatbuilding - Home and there's Brent's book and plans, with those three things any one could build one of these things.


The plates for the 36' brent boat are 36x8 feet you cut the corners off, turn them around and weld them onto the bottom middle to extend the plate there.

[haidan]

And if your going to learn how to weld I would suggest learning on a stick welder, people will try and convince you otherwise (to use mig) but stick is the best for this type of thing. It's the most fool proof method of welding, mig and tig welding can be screwed up by dirt, oil, paint, rust, wind, ect. It's very easy to make a nice looking weld with a mig setup but it may not have the penetration to make it a strong weld, stick will always give you good penetration without much fuss. Plus the welders are cheaper, in fadct you can usually find a nice dc/ac buzzbox for under 300 on craigslist and all you need I a stinger cable long enough to reach the length of the boat, with mig you have to cart the machine around all over the boat - trust me it's a PITA.