Steel Boats and Welding

[ConradG]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

well, this is news to me. I thought Roberts only sells plans. i can order a kit online and have it delivered to my apartment, and can do the welding in the garage downstairs.

Unless it is a big garage or a small boat...you might want to do it outside. Especially if it is downstairs. It would be a drag to have to take down the house to get the boat out!

Check out Michael Kastens articles on materials.

[ConradG]

http://www.kastenmarine.com/alumVSsteel.htm

Here's one. He's got a bunch.

[SaltyMonkey]

You know SaltyMonkey mindset all too well!

I'm working my way through the MOM site. Its just mind blowing. Simple and direct boatbuilding. You're not slapping stuff on so much, as what I would call it "Boat Sculpture" - chiseling away to get at the boat inside the steel. I look at the number of steel sheets delivered. Doesn't look like much of anything. Tack on a chainplate. Its done and bolt free!

It's like I found a secret society of magical boat builders hiding in the woods on Vancouver Island.

[SaltyMonkey]

Seems like Alum is the way to go for building custom boats under 35 ft for weight - and to save in labour costs

[chala]

SaltyMonkey if you wish to go sailing soon, buy a boat. If you intend to go cruising I would not build a boat hull out of 3mm or 1/8. A modern wide beam 37 feet is fairly equal to an older narrow 43 footer and the minimum size for steel. Steel is only a small fraction of the cost of building a boat. Kit are great but expensive, a stuff up or a cracked weld and you will be buying steel plate. Aluminium is soft, fatigue easy etc and requires more framing. It is easy to compare steel with aluminium by bending two drink cans and see witch one will break first. Having build a boat and sailing in a storm you may then doubt of the strength of your weld, a sweet worry.

[SaltyMonkey]

Yaaa I hear you Chala. welp, I can dream a bit though of folding my own PNW pilothouse in the woods of V island. More realistically would be to buy a used steel or alum boat, but be able to either modify certain parts of it to my liking and safety and better maintenance...or just do small repairs etc.

It just makes sense. I fear for that stress fracture on the ice box top I saw on the Morgan 382 today...not a spot weld problem I am sure.

[driftrolla]

First of all you need to be aware that like all boats there are good steel vessel and not so good ones . From my point off view when looking at steel boats you need to head for the bilges and hard to get spots i tend to look for dust in the bilges will generaly indicate a dry boat. i tend to stay away from boats that have sprayed foam in them as can hide a lot of problems also you need access to all the areas of the hull and decks so if a boat has deckhead panels and hull panels that are guled in place you have to wonder how much maintainence has been done. Also steel is very very forgiving.
As for maintainence you need to keep on top of it or it will runaway so any little chips need to be touched up right away. it seen like a big job but it's not really if you keep up with it. as for dealing with rust spots not rusted panels i use a little spot sand blasting unit i have found that this works the best for stopping it comming back other wise a wire brush and a pin punch is the neixt best.

I have a tig welder on board i believe that you get a better weld in all aspects with a tig but not really suitable for all jobs. welding is not all that hard just takes some practice and an understanding of what you are trying to do, so practice makes perfect. so go down the tool shop and get your self a cheap little stick welder and start having a try with some scrap and you be a pro in no time, all so check youtube for how to weld vids to get the basics.

If you are looking a buying a steel boat i wouldn't reconmend a fixer upper. save yourself the heart ach and money and get a reasonable one to start with and enjoy it.
And hull maintainence is only one part of a good maintainence plan.

Stu "defiance1 "

[ConradG]

Originally Posted by driftrolla

If you are looking a buying a steel boat i wouldn't reconmend a fixer upper. save yourself the heart ach and money and get a reasonable one to start with and enjoy it.


Stu "defiance1 "

I agree. But much depends on budget. Time vs cash available. The cost of the hull material is a small part of it even if you have all the time in the world. Even with the price of aluminum down, when I priced the 6000#. wire gas and other consumebles, and then added an engine drive train sails and rigging (with me at the sewing machine), I found that it is readily available used but already in the form of a boat! In my case saving an estimated 800 hrs of welding and fabrication and another 1600 or so of joinery and finnishing (oh, I never mentioned the cost of what goes inside the welded up structure). Anyway, the point is that used boats are a bargain if you want to sail. In my case there is work to do before it's ready but it suits me timewise. For the price of SOME of the materials I was able to get a sound hull proffessionally built (34 yrs ago) with a new engine and an interior with the layout and of the no nonsense quality that I am after. The boats rig was changed so I have to bring it back-cut down and reweld the masts, make sails, run line. Getting rid of underwater through hulls is also my desire except for the engine intake and perhaps one for saltwater to the sinks. The drains will come above the static waterline. I have to paint the bottom of course and I may decide to paint the topsides because the color is, well, yellow...and old (but there's something about funky that is fine with me and topside paint on aluminum isn't nescessary) The list is longer but you get the idea-way ahead in time and money by purchasing used in this market. Even if you are set on a specific design with a little looking and patience it's out there.

[hpeer]

We just went through the process of buying a steel boat.

1993 West Coast Marine, South Africa Steel Hull Cutter Sail Boat For

I looked at this boat, twice. I thought she was pretty nice and of decent design but..........she is closed up and sweating like a pig. The broker says she has "mildew." Well yeah. She is a rain forest inside.

There is some reconstruction work to do on the chain locker area where she has rusted out. I didn't look further than that.

1990 Brewer Murray Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1984 Murray Custom Built Steel Cutter Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1983 Murray Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I don't know these particular boats but I have a sister ship to them. They were built as bare hulls buy some farmer up in Canada. The guy has an EXCELLENT touch with a welder. The steel workmanship is, in my opinion, first quality. Not the fastest sailers but rugged and dependable. I sail most single handed in Newfoundland. I find her to be very, very dry. I almost never get wet from spray. I've been out is 12' following seas and felt comfortable (as possible) in her. The long fin keel allows her to turn in nearly her own length so she is handy in a marina. I have a little 13hp Volvo which is kinda small. Brewer recommends the bow sprit if you have any intentions to off shore work.

The interiors are owner completed so fit and finish may vary. Displacement is closer to 16,000 to 18,000 lbs. If you are doing any off shore work you want the bow sprit. One Love was sold about 8 years ago but new to the market now. Trude is new to the market. The Wisconsin boat has been on the market for a good long time and she is a fresh water boat. I would look seriously at that one.

1982 Ganley Snowbird Junk Rig Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I looked at this boat last summer. She is a real pretty little boat. Too small for the wife and I but for a single person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The junk rig is real easy to handle. And she is dirt cheap. I have a bunch of pics of this boat if you are interested.

As to aluminum that is what my wife really, really, really wanted. We even went to closing on an aluminum boat but pulled out after looking more closely at the welds. What we saw with aluminum was that if we could afford it we didn't want it. I think, for a good aluminum boat, you are looking at over $200k.

We found one boat with great design but lousy welds - mentioned above
Another boat was another wonderful design, but it was a wreck inside and had corrosion issues. There were other problems to boot.
The third boat was beautiful construction, almost new, perfect welds. The designer must have been on acid.

In the end we bought a 44' custom Alan Pape design sold by Rogue Wave. Her fundamentals are of first quality but she has her issues.

I'll offer a new definition of a BLUE WATER BOAT. One you don't dare bring into a marina for fear of damaging everything else in there.

Despite spending a couple of hours in her bilges myself, two surveys, and one ultrasound I found a rust spot that had to be cut out and replaced. I'm now, slowly, removing floors to expose areas that have not been exposed previously. I occasional find some more rust than I like but nothing disastrous, yet. I'm pretty near there.

Fortunately my wife's standards are below my bargain basement quality so she always argues to leave things open and exposed. No fancy girly stuff there. Her ideal is a bare hull, bean bag chair, and cooler. You gotta love that, in a steel boat, and a wife.

[ConradG]

hpeer,
It is possible to find very well built aluminum boats for far less than a quarter of the 200K that you mention. Aluminum welds beautifully...by those that know how. But your point should be well taken-know what to look for and look well! With any boat of any material. And for metal boats in particular, anyone looking might consider Europe as the currency exchange is quite favorable (and probably going to get better) and more importantly, metal boats are more numerous.

As a side, yeah for the junk rig! If you're interested Tom Colvin has a few more books you might be interested in. He did alot with and for it in modern times. And if you are looking for one of his designs used in aluminum many were built in BC by a yard which no longer exhists (Greenwich Yachts) but of which I have only heard great things about their work. There have recently been (may still be) several boats of their build on the market but gaff rigged. Most Colvin boats and thier owners tend to be of the KISSS (keep it super simple sailor) mentality. The beanbag chair type (how did you luck out so?)....Kero lights inside (and out), even quite a few engineless. Down to buisiness and efficiency with seaworthyness and simplicty in mind. Which, even if you plan to install electric and gizmos, can mean that exhisting problems associated with electric systems aren't a worry...yet.

[Microship]

You know how racers will yell "starboard!" to warn an approaching boat that they are the stand-on vessel?

I just yell "steel!"

Steve

[SaltyMonkey]

I'll have to get a complete list of Colvin designs and look around.

Looked at a junk rig 27 Norsea about 2 months ago. Always wanted a junk since my days idolizing Hasler and JESTER. Benefits of reefing and being able to build your own sails. On the bad though - whipping mast, more windage/top heavy due to thicker mast, no headsail for heave to (you'll have to add something), don't point well. I rejected this one mainly because the engine was way under powered and not well maintained to my standard and where I want to go. And the mast was retrofitted so I didn't trust all that weight aloft being basically a solid wooden telephone pole. Interior was sparce and gutted. Needed work in there but I dont care. I need to see everything.

The listing for this Ganley looks interesting though

[haidan]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Great great information in there

PS: Brent Swain - I know he used to pst here online a lot, but I don't know of a site for his work anywhere. I've been looking for a few months.

Brent doesn't really advertise, his postings around the Internet boat forums are about as close to advertising as it gets. Try the origami boats forum his book is worth getting from him at the least for food for thought.
origamiboats : Messages : 23427-23456 of 23456
metal boat forum is another great site for steel.
it's full of knowledgeable steel boat owners, mostly about building frameless folded steel boats, but steel is steel.
Oh and stay away from any second hand boat with 1/8" plating, there is just not enough metal there.

[SaltyMonkey]

here's one for fun =)

Fantastic 36 foot Steel Ketch Sailing Vessal 1988

[haidan]

brent steel

here's a Brent boat just went up for sale. Don't know anything about this boat, never heard it's name mentioned. But it's one of the first few that all got built around 20-25 years ago, they built a bunch around that time. Since it's got a "professionally" manufactured roller furler, mast, wheel steering, it's probably more yachty style, some people don't even have solid liferails, wish they had a picture.
sounds as though he went with the skeg cooling, which is awesome no more screwing around with a heat exchanger. 20 horse is what I have and it's enough, just.
Looks like it's been down in the states, cause not many people bother with macerator pumps up here, or holding tanks, really.
All in all it sounds like a nice boat, though I'd take out the wheel steering, unless they've got it out of the way somehow, It also means they don't have the wind vane which is a shame, they're pretty nice to have.