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Old 19-09-2014, 11:13   #16
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Re: Sail Selection Musings

Thanks again everyone for the great replies/discussion.

I guess my thinking with the 110% jib and a code 0 is that I know the Code 0 should work for relatively close reaching in light winds. As the winds fill in, I'd have to bear off with the code 0, but also as the winds fill in the 110% should become more effective. I suppose I do see the point where maybe around the 10-15knot range the 110% isn't making enough power and it would be too much wind to point with the Code 0. I guess I was thinking that instead of having a furled Genoa, I could have a code 0 and use it as I would the Genoa in lighter air. Since the code 0 has a free flying luff, it would save me the hassle of swapping out sails on the furler.

This is all in relation to daysails and weekend sails. I know this isn't a very good setup for traveling, as it doesn't provide a very effective way of dealing with a wide variety of wind conditions when you're trying to head in a specific direction. I'm thinking the vast majority of my sailing is going to be beating up wind and then cruising back downwind to the docks. As such, I can easily just pick the days to sail that have wind conditions that coincide best with the sails I have. I was just trying to think of a sail setup that would cover the broadest range of wind conditions I'll likely encounter in Puget Sound with the fewest amount of sail changes. Raising a code 0 seems way easier than trying to slide a different sail on a furling track. Having never used a Code 0, It's possible that I'm overestimating its usefulness.

As a side note, I like the idea of having a furling headsail, since they are so easy to set; but I can definitely see the advantage of having hanked on sails for long range cruising. Or at least maybe having a single furler with a removable forestay for hanked on sails. Have an Assymetric or code 0 in a sock, a 140%-150% genoa on the furler, a 110% and a storm jib that can be hanked on the forestay, and a triple reefed main. (Ok, I just scrolled down to re-read some of the posts and see that's pretty much exactly the setup JazzyO has).
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Old 19-09-2014, 11:55   #17
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Re: Sail Selection Musings

I had exactly the same thoughts and came to a similar conclusion. Replaced the 150% genoa with a 110% working jib and use a bow-tacked a-sail for reaching in light/medium air and a symmetric chute for going deeper. By the time it gets too windy for the chute I only lose a knot or so by switching to the jib.

Regarding the code-zero, I just did the most recent Newport-Bermuda race on a fancy carbon-fibre thingy and the code zero on a roller-furler came in exceptionally handy for light-air close-reaching. It's not very versatile though as the shape isn't too good for going deeper. For myself, I decided against getting one for cruising.
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Old 19-09-2014, 12:50   #18
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On my 37.5 hunter legend, I have a 110, yankee cut, furling genoa and an asym spin in a sock that I can reach to run with. I have a spinnaker halyard (obviously) and a downhaul and the spinnaker tack goes around the furled genoa. I have two deep reefs for the main. This setup has been great for my wife and I (and the dogs). A good balance between managability, comfort, and sailing performance. We not in the lead when cruising, but we're not the caboose, either. The one thing my boat has to help with light air performance is a folding prop.


Ben
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Old 20-09-2014, 00:41   #19
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Re: Sail Selection Musings

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
Having said that, however, I think you need to add in some local knowledge and the fact that the OP will be sailing on weekends in mostly protected waters.


Of course. My post was intended to make the OP think about his set-up, not prescribe anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkerfluid View Post
Raising a code 0 seems way easier than trying to slide a different sail on a furling track. Having never used a Code 0, It's possible that I'm overestimating its usefulness.


You certainly don't want to mess with a furling track on a moving boat if you can avoid it. A Code 0 is a great sail but it doesn't reach, well, up to 90 degrees. In that sense it is a very poor substitute for a genoa. Have a look at the North Sails guide to help you decide. But be aware that these sails are always a bit of work setting up with long sheets, tack line and tacker. Also - what kind of rig do you have? Because our forestay goes to the top of the mast and the point of the bow, the only way to fly a gennaker is to use a Tacker - a plastic sleeve around the furled genoa where you attach the tack. Because of the we can only use a snuffer, no option for a furling genny. Also something to think about: furling gennakers often create a mess and can damage themselves very easily. I'm happy with the snuffer set-up, easy to get the sail down if you have the main up, at least.

When thinking about you Code 0, remember that it is a massive sail. Pointing 40 degrees, it starts overpowering your boat at about 10 kts of wind. There's good info on the North website: North Sails: Code 0 (A0) Aysmmetric Spinnakers

Personally, I'm not sure I follow your logic deciding on a C0 if you want to point up with it and then come down again wit the 110%. In your case I would take a 135% genoa and not have any sail changes at all, just reef it down to 110 if necessary. But perhaps I am missing something.

I have not sailed a Code 0 but what I read on the web it tells me the sail has a very narrow operating window. I think for your purposes it might actually give you more work, rather than less.


Onno
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Old 20-09-2014, 01:08   #20
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Re: Sail Selection Musings

G'Day Jazzy,

Well, those are sure pretty diagrams, and I bet that North would love to have us buy a sail to meet every one of those colourful areas on the polars.

But I am curious as to why they show a C0 only back to ~90 deg apparent? In a cruising environment, couldn't one pole out a big 0 well into deep angles, and have a really BIG downwind sail? Seems feasible to me! We've used a flat cut Gennaker type sail like that (years ago) and it was ok... not as powerful as a proper kite, but bigger than the genoa on that boat, and powerful between 130-180 degrees AWA.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 20-09-2014, 08:45   #21
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Re: Sail Selection Musings

I guess you didn't read the article I posted the link to, Jim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by North Sails
A Code Zero luff should be as long as the rig allows. This is determined by measuring the distance from the raised halyard point to wherever the tack will set. Ideally, the tack point is a strong fixture on the boat forward of the headstay. These sails are rarely set on conventional spinnaker poles and extreme caution should be used setting a Code Zero on retractable sprit-style poles. Zeros exert a lot of upward force in order to fly with the luff as straight as possible. If the sail will set on a furler (recommended), clearance between the drum and the headstay must also be accommodated. The leech is designed close to the maximum allowed. The foot is usually close to half the luff length, but also can be governed by handicap, rating or class rules. Girth-limited Code Zeros may need shorter foots. Area limited sails might need longer foots if there is a minimum area requirement that needs to be met.
I'm not sure why you struck the cynical tone about North Sails, though. Sails are what they are, and they are designed for what they are designed for. You don't need to buy them. In principle, Code 0's are designed for racers, and they have been designed for a very specific purpose (namely: a big upwind genoa that is not counted as a genoa in the rating), with a narrow window of operation.

I'm sure North Sails or any other sailmaker would be happy to design a sail for you that would be better to pole out, more of an allrounder than a Code 0.


Onno
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Old 20-09-2014, 14:01   #22
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Re: Sail Selection Musings

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post

When thinking about you Code 0, remember that it is a massive sail. Pointing 40 degrees, it starts overpowering your boat at about 10 kts of wind. There's good info on the North website: North Sails: Code 0 (A0) Aysmmetric Spinnakers

Personally, I'm not sure I follow your logic deciding on a C0 if you want to point up with it and then come down again wit the 110%. In your case I would take a 135% genoa and not have any sail changes at all, just reef it down to 110 if necessary. But perhaps I am missing something.

I have not sailed a Code 0 but what I read on the web it tells me the sail has a very narrow operating window. I think for your purposes it might actually give you more work, rather than less.


Onno
I didn't mean that as the wind builds I would fall off AND switch to the 110%. I meant, if I kept the Code 0 up I would fall off so as not to over power the boat, OR if I needed to continue pointing up wind I would drop the Code 0 and switch to the 110%. This is what I meant when I said "as the winds fill in the 110% should become more effective (while pointing)", hope that clears up my logic. Essentially I just want to use the Code 0 the same way I would my genoa, only not have to have it on a furler, which frees my existing furler up for a 110% that is ready to use if the wind builds.

I'm guessing that the Code 0 has a narrow operating window for optimal use, but would it be any less effective off wind than the genoa I have now? Would I be able to pole it out for downwind sailing, just like you might with whatever headsail you have if you don't have a spinnaker at all? I know it's not a true down wind sail, but I doubt very much that I'll get a symmetric spinnaker bc of the complexity, at least not on the boat we're looking at getting for now.

I guess my real concern in all of this is that I have a big headsail now, but no way to attach a smaller sail when the winds pick up. I thought maybe putting the 110% on the furler and flying either a code 0 or asymmetric spinnaker would save me from the expense of adding an inner forestay. In reality, it sounds like it's best to just keep what I have and add an inner forestay with a hank on 110% and a downwind sail in a sock.
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Old 20-09-2014, 14:23   #23
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Re: Sail Selection Musings

The decision about the type of sails to use and have are related to the most common wind conditions in which you will be sailing. The code zero is great in zephyrs. If you are going to windward all the time in light air, the zero is for you. If, however, you are mostly reaching and then turning downwind, then the asym in a sock is the better choice because you will use it more. I have always found that too much sail is much worse than too little, especially in a new, unknown boat. So....my suggestion is sail your new baby for a season and see what the conditions are like most of the time. Experiment with your current sails, gather the information, then choose your sails.

I have an asym with a tacker on the furled jib. I have found my 110 Yankee cut jib to be perfect for us. For us, with my family hanging out on the bow while We are sailing, they don't get decapitated when I am tacking. Their comfort is more important than squeezing an extra knot in speed to me, for example. Also, it is easier for me to heave to with this jib.

The asym is fun and easy to use, and goes up on it's own halyard in a jiffy. By the way, where will you be sailing, mostly? If I missed that from previous, I apologize.

Heavier air:
http://youtu.be/Gg2pH4D0pRI

No air:
http://youtu.be/Nc-TUvJNh8o

Ben




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Old 20-09-2014, 14:34   #24
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Re: Sail Selection Musings

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
I guess you didn't read the article I posted the link to, Jim.



I'm not sure why you struck the cynical tone about North Sails, though. Sails are what they are, and they are designed for what they are designed for. You don't need to buy them. In principle, Code 0's are designed for racers, and they have been designed for a very specific purpose (namely: a big upwind genoa that is not counted as a genoa in the rating), with a narrow window of operation.

I'm sure North Sails or any other sailmaker would be happy to design a sail for you that would be better to pole out, more of an allrounder than a Code 0.


Onno
Onno, the description of the Code 0 in the article is aimed at a racing situation... I think this is why they emphasize the full length luff, etc. In the cruising environment that I was addressing, a less than max size sail would change those parameters, and thus my query about poling out a Code 0 downwind. Perhaps there is a technical disconnect here: the sail I envision is not exactly what North (or other race oriented sailmakers) mean when they say "Code 0". Maybe it is a Code 1, or 1.5, or 2 or whatever, I dunno.

But for the OP's situation, a large free luff light sail on a furler that could be poled out downwind would perhaps be a good option.

Finally, I didn't think my selecting North sails as an example was cynical... they were the source of the diagrams you posted, and the implication was that one needed a huge assortment of sails to adequately meet a range of wind and course situations. This is not a feasible option for most cruisers, let alone the OP. I suspect that any race oriented sailmaker would have similar recommendations for a big inventory. A cruising yacht needs multi purpose sails, which is a more difficult design assignment by far IMO.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 20-09-2014, 14:53   #25
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Re: Sail Selection Musings

Quote:
Originally Posted by bensolomon View Post
The decision about the type of sails to use and have are related to the most common wind conditions in which you will be sailing. The code zero is great in zephyrs. If you are going to windward all the time in light air, the zero is for you. If, however, you are mostly reaching and then turning downwind, then the asym in a sock is the better choice because you will use it more. I have always found that too much sail is much worse than too little, especially in a new, unknown boat. So....my suggestion is sail your new baby for a season and see what the conditions are like most of the time. Experiment with your current sails, gather the information, then choose your sails.

The asym is fun and easy to use, and goes up on it's own halyard in a jiffy. By the way, where will you be sailing, mostly? If I missed that from previous, I apologize.



Ben Solomon
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I would agree that too much sail is worse than too little, which is a lot of my concern. I know this thread has kind of bc the a discussion about the merits of having a code 0 or asymmetric spinnaker, but my real concern is a lack of heavy air sails. To me, a 150% genoa is a lighter air sail, and while I could furl it to reduce it's size, that's not a great option. That's why I was leaning towards the 110% on the furler, then having a code 0 or asymmetric to not give up on light wind.

I'm sure I won't be buying any sails very soon, unless I happen to find a good deal on a 110%, so I'll put some time on the water and figure out what will work best for me. As it is, I need to get the boat first

I'll be sailing in the Puget Sound area, which from what I can tell means light winds during the summer with heavy winds associated with passing storm systems in the winter (and the corresponding lull in between systems).
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Old 20-09-2014, 14:58   #26
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Re: Sail Selection Musings

I, too, suffer light winds in the summer. I have found that using my main loose footed so that I can use the outhaul to shape the main has been a huge improvement in light air, with the 110 jib.

Ben


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Old 22-09-2014, 06:02   #27
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Re: Sail Selection Musings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
A cruising yacht needs multi purpose sails
I am very happy with my set-up of 5 sails (see previous post) and they are not really multipurpose. By definition, a sail that does more than 1 job does every job less well than one designed for the task.

It is IMHO not possible to have an effective upwind gennaker that you also effectively use as a runner. To me that is no problem, 5 sails do the job in a grand manner.

What you NEED and what you WANT are two different things.


Onno
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Old 22-09-2014, 09:12   #28
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Re: Sail Selection Musings

Unless you are racing, there is little to be gained by going bigger than 110 on your jib. The 110 is more manageable and can point higher (in general, with cruising material). A light air genoa might be in your future, but the 110 is going to be your most useful, efficient all around size.

Asyms are fun and certainly will give you more options when you're not close hauled. I would opt for one over a Code 0 if the choice is between one or the other.

I do agree that you should just sail the boat for a season or so before you really get into the question of what sort of inventory you want to start to carry. Your thinking on the subject is virtually guaranteed to change based on experience on your boat.
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Old 22-09-2014, 13:07   #29
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Sail Selection Musings

Really the 110 is to small to be anything but a medium to heavy wind sail for an Aloha 32 (18-30 kts). As others have suggested, you would be well served with a 135 or 140 cruiisng weight genoa that can be furled down to smaller size as needed, and a nice 6.5 oz cruising main with three reef points. That's what North sails in Seattle recommended to me, based on their experience outfitting boats that make the run through the South pacific to New Zealand.

Besides, It's a real nuisance trying to change sails with a foil and roller furling when the wind gets up - better to install a Solent and have a working jyb and storm jyb ready to hank on if ever needed. I've set up my alberg 30 this way, and use the Solent and roller furling genoa in tandem to fly twin downwind sails. after buying a working jyb, 110, and storm jyb, I found I never really use them, as my genoa does everything I need, at all points of sail and every wind condition below 35 kts. Besides when are you ever going to care about pointing 5 to 6 degrees higher in 20' seas and 35+ knots?? Answer: never. All this talk about sailing efficiency and going to windward in heavy weather is the stuff of Horatio Hornblower. Great reading, almost never happens in real life with a small Marconi rigged sloop.


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Old 22-09-2014, 13:48   #30
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Re: Sail Selection Musings

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
I guess you didn't read the article I posted the link to, Jim.



I'm not sure why you struck the cynical tone about North Sails, though. Sails are what they are, and they are designed for what they are designed for. You don't need to buy them. In principle, Code 0's are designed for racers, and they have been designed for a very specific purpose (namely: a big upwind genoa that is not counted as a genoa in the rating), with a narrow window of operation.

I'm sure North Sails or any other sailmaker would be happy to design a sail for you that would be better to pole out, more of an allrounder than a Code 0.


Onno
I think you misunderstand what Jim means when he says "pole out." The North article says that you shouldn't put the tack on a pole (like with a symmetric spinnaker). I think we can all agree on that. Works with an assym, but not a C0. Jim was advocating poling out the clew with a whisker pole. There's no reason that shouldn't work just fine.

I believe many cruisers use a C0 like sail (Totem calls it a Cruising Code Zero) as an all around light wind sail, including downwind. I understand some like it better than an assym because the taught luff rope keeps the sail more stable when rolling around in light wind when an assym would be collapsing and filling.
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