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**sneuman** · 27-11-2006, 04:21

Having successfully resisted the urge to re-enter the "unfortunate turn!" thread ... just posting this out of curiosity:

What effect does the extra windage from a pilothouse have on performance - for example, a boat like the Tayana 37. I can see the definite advantages to having the model with pilothouse, but also wonder about all that additional windage.

?

ssullivan · 27-11-2006, 05:31

I'd say the modern full cockpit enclosure has a similar amount of windage to a pilothouse - and many people are running with these enclosures. I haven't noticed much of a problem with windage (althought there is certainly more).

My gut feeling is that a pilothouse is really reserved for colder climates. Also, the modern cockpit enclosures give you many of the advantages of a pilothouse without the additional weight.

Just a few thoughts, without knowing the exact effect of a Tayana 37 vs a Tayana 37 Pilothouse.

**Alan Wheeler** · 27-11-2006, 10:23

I guess it depends on the profile of the PH. Mine is low and profiled, but I have seen many that look like boxes slapped on top, with big square windows that I would be terrified taking a hit from a decent wave.
I like having the Pilot house, because in severe weather, it gives you comfort in safety. But stearing from outside is a must in all other sailing conditions.

**Pblais** · 27-11-2006, 14:42

Pilot houses were always considered a cold water feature. If you are in hot climates you may not want to be inside a pilot house. A hard dodger may get you nearly all the good things about a pilot house without the bad. I have seen convertible tops too. A hybrid may make it more comfortable when the weather is clear and calm.

Our current boat has a half hard dodger that only comes up half way. the canvas dodger then can complete the windscreen or leave it open. With a 1/2 hard dodger it block the water when it gets foul on the water but has good visibility.

cat man do · 27-11-2006, 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pblais

Our current boat has a half hard dodger that only comes up half way. the canvas dodger then can complete the windscreen or leave it open. With a 1/2 hard dodger it block the water when it gets foul on the water but has good visibility.

Sound's like the perfect setup to me, the best of both worlds.

Dave

Brent Swain · 30-11-2006, 14:37

Would you buy a pickup truck which can only be steered from the open box? Duhhh!!
A crew on deck often has more windage than a pilot house. A warm, low stress, fully awake crew is far more efficient than any reduction in windage would give you.
I once fried in an open cockpit going from Moorea to Huahine. I'd have given my right arm for a pilot house. I always use mine in hot weather.
Leaving crew in the open is just plain bad seamnship. It's a leftover from the puritan days, puritanism being the terrible, nagging fear that someone somewhere just might be having a good time.
Soft dodgers, after years of repairs, are replaced by hard dodgers, then wheelhouses. Do the intelligent thing and skip the intermediate steps, ( and suffering)
Brent

ssullivan · 30-11-2006, 14:42

Brent, surely you aren't suggesting that a pilothouse is cooler than say... a bimini... right? I'm only going by limited experience, but itsn't anything below decks much hotter than above deck on hot, sunny days? It tends to be that way for me, as there is less breeze to evaporate sweat.

I mean, with a bimini (or enclosure with panels removed) you would get a nice breeze on you all day long while staying out of the sun. With a pilothouse, it's either sweat in there, or run a genset and air conditioning.

Not really trying to argue or say you are wrong, just wondering where the idea/logic is behind what you are saying.

Jon D · 30-11-2006, 15:15

I would think a properly designed pilot house offers no more risk than any other properly designed boat. I would imagine when boats are offered in a pilot house / non pilot house version adjustments are made to the ballast / rig etc. to account for changes to CG/CW etc. When we first started our search for a cruising boat a raised salon/pilot house was high on the list. Unfortunately there are not a lot of choices in performance cruising raised salon boats that are semi affordable. That Oyster is just outside my budget range...

tdw · 30-11-2006, 16:33

I can well appreciate the advantages of a pilot house. One would have to figure that advances in saftey glass technology has somewhat reduced the risk of breaking windows, opening windows would sort out the ventilation issue. On the other hand if you look at the accomodation plans of the Tayana 37 there is no way I'd choose the pilot house against the standard. Methinks that a sub 40'er is simply too small to work as a PH and maintain interior space for two people. I'd rather have an arrangement similar to the Halberg Rassey 382 where you have a solid screen and soft top and sides. Over 40' we start to move into another dimension.

DeepFrz · 30-11-2006, 20:18

I agree with tdw. Dix has a couple of nice designs, a 43' and 45'. Also Dieter Empacher has a 47' and 51' (very similar designs) that he did for Kanter.

The 43' mentioned above is about the smallest size, IMHO, for a pilot house design. But that of course is a matter of visual esthetics and can vary for everyone. I think that it depends too on how many bunks one wants to jam into the boat.

I think that pilot house designs become more attractive the older one gets or the farther North one lives or sails. It seems to me one alternative to a trawler and makes equipment maintenance a little easier on older bodies because of the extra space below the pilot house floor. The problem with large areas of glass used to worry me untill I realized that most trawlers are built with very large windows, larger than most contemporarty pilot house designs and they survive quite well. So I think that glass size is just one more of those spooks that lurk under my bed at night <GR>

tdw · 01-12-2006, 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

I agree with tdw. Dix has a couple of nice designs, a 43' and 45'. Also Dieter Empacher has a 47' and 51' (very similar designs) that he did for Kanter.

The 43' mentioned above is about the smallest size, IMHO, for a pilot house design. But that of course is a matter of visual esthetics and can vary for everyone. I think that it depends too on how many bunks one wants to jam into the boat.

I think that pilot house designs become more attractive the older one gets or the farther North one lives or sails. It seems to me one alternative to a trawler and makes equipment maintenance a little easier on older bodies because of the extra space below the pilot house floor. The problem with large areas of glass used to worry me untill I realized that most trawlers are built with very large windows, larger than most contemporarty pilot house designs and they survive quite well. So I think that glass size is just one more of those spooks that lurk under my bed at night <GR>

Mutual agreement society.

I'd only want a PH if I can have two decent day berths in the PH and without losing decent lounging space down below with a U-Galley, two good sea berths (these can double as settees) and an in port cabin. Ya cain't do that under 40' unless you happen to be the good Doctor, Who that is. I'm not interested in cramming in a multitude of berths, that only encourages guests and I'm an antisocial sob at the best of times. You often see boats these days with a u-shaped settee and straight line galley opposite. To me that is an abomination as it makes it impossible for two people to lie down which is (in my opinion and that's all it is) the natural state of affairs when at sea. The only time I could cope with a straight line galley is when it's on a centre cockpit boat and is positioned in the passagway to the aft cabin.

Andrew

ps - It seems to me that most so called PH's are really deck saloons.
pps - Laurent Giles Salar is a reasonable compromise depending on the layout.

sundown · 01-12-2006, 01:06

I have a 34' Nothsea pilothouse ( a colvic victor knockoff). I have no complaints about windage with boat. There is ample room for my wife, 16 year old daughter, and myself. There is a large double mid ships and a huge single in the fore peak. There is also a single midships but in my opinion it is sort of wasted space other than my shitzu has laid claim to it.
Because all our cruising with this boat will be in British Columbia and points north the pilothouse is, for us, a plus. When I am anchored up in some bug infested bay or in the sleet and rain it is really nice to be able to sit at my galley table and look out the windows. As to when it is actually hot out (a dim memory right now) there are two big hatches in the fore deck and coach roof that open to provide good air flow through.
That said and done boats are like shoes: the style and fit for one person may not work for another.

DeepFrz · 01-12-2006, 08:30

Here is a listing for a pilot house designed by Ted Brewer and built by Kanter. Getting quite old now for a steel boat but has a layout as tdw described. Day bunk in pilothouse, U shaped galley and salon below. The only problem I see with the layout is (as it appears from the photos) that only the helmsman can see out the windows while seated. Of course that could be easily rectified by putting in another chair.

Hmmm, maybe I really do want a Trawler...

Deep