New build of older encapslated keel designs

[Adelie]

Contessa 32 had an encapsulated keel and are still being built new.

[Van Der Beek]

In reference of keel(s)

Originally Posted by Wckoek

I think the current Amel are bolt on.

I didn't know that, truth be told I haven't paid much attention to the company after the 55 was launched.

A real shame they moved away from the founders core values and design philosophy, all of which were very sound.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

I think the current Amel are bolt on.

The discussion I have with a few boat restorer/designer and builders is that bolt on keel remains a "mystery meat", they build it as designed, but no proof that it worked.
This topic: https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/in...reinforcement/
The keel area if reinforced by steel cage of a sort would be as strong as you want it to be, but if it is connected via grid in the liners like many Beneteau and mass produced models, you do not know what is in there.
"Fiberglass is not a rigid material AND it is viscoelastic" "Keels made of metal are essentially rigid in comparison. Stiffness mismatch makes for all sorts of trouble" "Massive overloading of localized laminate leading to creep rupture or other problems"

Interesting, I didn't know much yard still build hull only these days.
How much you pay for the hull of the 31 and does it cost a lot of time and money for you to finish it?

The 31' hull cost me $23,000 fifteen years ago; the rest of the build about $55K. All told, the whole project cost about $80k. However, I did 99.9% of the work myself, including fabricating my own rig and fittings, splicing the standing rigging myself, and even sewing one of my sails. I can't calculate how much value the time I spent would have if paying someone else to do it.

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by more

New bavaria 41 Cruiser standard cost 127 592 € + tax with eletronic add 4000 € equipment add 10000€ total around 160000 $
who buy the worst boat and 300% more expensive.

D&D 54 ft with 3 fridge,AC all equipment is 210000 €

Bavaria C 50 with full equipment is under 400000 $

That is probably EU price, in Asia we have no chance of getting under 200k EUR, I don't think in the US either.
Transportation cost around 1k per feet.

Originally Posted by Ween

Hmmm. My Valiant 42 is considered "blue water" all day long, yet it has a bolt-on keel...albeit a super beefy lead one on a huge keel stub.

Last quote I saw for one was almost $700k and that was without commissioning (gear, sails...)

Semi-custom, hand-built, offshore spec'd boats are expensive and the market is small.

For much less than a new one you can buy and refit a very fine used example. This is the path I'm following.

It can be done or had been done in Asia for half or less than half of 700k, but how many buyers?

Originally Posted by yelken

Hi, Kraken Yachts has a new Kraken 50, which is based on an encapsulated keel design, which they call "Zero Keel". There are recent YouTube videos on it.
Yelken

They look very nice and interesting but must have cost just under 1 million?

Originally Posted by Adelie

Contessa 32 had an encapsulated keel and are still being built new.

Thanks for the info, I didn't know they are still being made.

Originally Posted by Benz

The 31' hull cost me $23,000 fifteen years ago; the rest of the build about $55K. All told, the whole project cost about $80k. However, I did 99.9% of the work myself, including fabricating my own rig and fittings, splicing the standing rigging myself, and even sewing one of my sails. I can't calculate how much value the time I spent would have if paying someone else to do it.

That is very reasonable, cheap even, I wondered why the yard never advertise the option or having it partially build?

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

A new build could be done for not a lot more than 400k, I am not keeping with price since corona, but maybe it is possible a little under 400k.
Would people prefer to spend the same amount to recondition vs buying new?
A good condition boat is around 70-90k, update it would cost more than 200k plus time lost.
Full keel boat build later than 90's ask more than 100k, a Hans Christian 33 I don't remember whether it is 1994, is asking 120k a while ago, so it would push the price to 300k or more.
Why there is no market for new build of this kind of boat when people are paying for modern boats that are build much cheaply?

I think we need to clarify what size boat we’re talking about here. I’m my post above I was thinking of a boat similar to mine (47’) but it seems like you must be thinking of a smaller boat if you can buy a good used one for $70K-$90K and build it brand new for $400K because I can’t imagine that those numbers could be close to accurate for a 47’ boat. I agree with you that it seems odd that so many people seem to prefer a lighter, less elegantly finished boat but that’s the market these days. If the demand was there and it could be done and a profit made, the Taiwanese would still be churning them out.

[Caleb_Grey]

Originally Posted by Van Der Beek

In reference of keel(s)



I didn't know that, truth be told I haven't paid much attention to the company after the 55 was launched.

A real shame they moved away from the founders core values and design philosophy, all of which were very sound.

Even the Super Maramu has the external ballast bolted to the keel, making up at least 1/3 of the keel.
I know of atleast one that broke it off in a grounding.

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I think we need to clarify what size boat we’re talking about here. I’m my post above I was thinking of a boat similar to mine (47’) but it seems like you must be thinking of a smaller boat if you can buy a good used one for $70K-$90K and build it brand new for $400K because I can’t imagine that those numbers could be close to accurate for a 47’ boat. I agree with you that it seems odd that so many people seem to prefer a lighter, less elegantly finished boat but that’s the market these days. If the demand was there and it could be done and a profit made, the Taiwanese would still be churning them out.

Pantawee Marine build Hallmark 480 for $380 or 390.
I don't know how much Tashing build their 47 in their final days.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

A new build could be done for not a lot more than 400k, I am not keeping with price since corona, but maybe it is possible a little under 400k.
Would people prefer to spend the same amount to recondition vs buying new?
A good condition boat is around 70-90k, update it would cost more than 200k plus time lost.
Full keel boat build later than 90's ask more than 100k, a Hans Christian 33 I don't remember whether it is 1994, is asking 120k a while ago, so it would push the price to 300k or more.
Why there is no market for new build of this kind of boat when people are paying for modern boats that are build much cheaply?

What you said is true, but zillions of bolt on keels aren't designed to be "bluewater" cruisers, even it can be retrofitted to do so

Funny they all cross oceans , and can be found in any meeting point around the oceans, all with bolt on keels

Hr, oyster , Amel , sunbeam, contest all high end all bolt on

Obsessing on a particular detail is the hallmark of the armchair sailor

And yes there’s no market for encapsulated keel why

Bolt on works and is cheaper to build
Less issues then with encapsulated
Faster
More hydrodynamic

Nobody wants a 18 century boat

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

Pantawee Marine build Hallmark 480 for $380 or 390.
I don't know how much Tashing build their 47 in their final days.

They added a foot to the sugar scoop transom and started calling them 48’s the year after mine was built. I’m not sure what they last sold for, but significantly more than $400K. In 2010 there was a used one listed for $675K and they were available to be ordered as recently as 2019 for around that same price. But they came standard with Formica countertops, no genset, just 2 120Ah batteries, black steel fuel tank, so most owners made significant upgrades by replacing Formica with corian, adding a genset, 1000Ah batteries, replacing black steel with aluminum fuel tanks with increased capacity, bow thruster, Watermaker, etc so when actually equipped for cruising price was even higher. And these boats were built at a location where both teak and labor were very cheap so I find it very hard to believe that anyone could build a comparable boat today with all materials costing more, unless they had access to slave labor.

[goboatingnow]

There’s no way small volume 45 footers will come in under 750K dollars especially custom stuff

This is just a dreaming thread , a search for a non existent boat at a non existent price point to do a task that can be done by every 40+ plastic fantastic these days.

[MV Alchemy]

The fact is that sailboat design and technology has moved on from the 1970s/80s and almost nobody now would choose to build a full keel boat unless for sentimental reasons. Your question is like asking whether you should start a company making wooden-framed biplanes - yes, there may be a few people who would buy out of interest but the market would be so small as to be unviable. Modern boat designs (if properly built) are simply better in every way.

[jeepers]

Why settle for "Bluewater" boats?
Firstly, a Bluewater boat is not identified solely by just keel.
A true Blue water boat has approximately 25 attributes,10 of which are critical.There are still many sources of Non-bolted keel, boat designs.

The hull and deck are actually a small portion of cost of a boat build.
Approximately 20%, similar to framing a house.
But it is the most impressive part of the build for both houses & boats.
The most is done for the least cost.
The interior costs from 10% (raceboat) to 65% for a top luxury cruiser.

Fast & nasty, plastic fantastic's can and have sailed oceans.
They can, until things go wrong.
Those failures become more evident as the boats age, more so with newer boats.
The hurricanes/cyclones are more frequent & more forceful, more violent.
There is more heat in the water, more energy equals more energy released.

The loss of a sailboat crossing an ocean can be more costly that just losing the boat. The potential loss of life is real as well as other costs such as repatriation, costs of Rescue. Does your insurance cover you to cross oceans? Your boat may not qualify for trans oceanic insurance coverage. If it does it still may not cover, rescue costs. If it doesn't cover ocean crossing you can be sure it doesn't cover rescue costs. Search & Rescue can cost millions. This is the same liability as driving your car. Your insurance pays. NB. Places like New Zealand now inspect boats before they leave.

There are so many designs of boats and programs available that to design a custom sailboat is very easy. Affordable if you do the research and concept work and get the final design by a Naval Architect /Engineer. It can still be your design.

A big interest today is not Bluewater but Expedition designs.
There are more and more sailboats going through the NW Passage.
Currently there is a sailing channel "Sailing Uma" going to Svalbard Island.
Which is 500 miles north of the Arctic Circle, 500 miles from the North pole.
Interestingly their boat is all electric. No diesel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO9XssNPUz0&t=2s

[Adelie]

They got a Honda gas generator for that trip, so not all electric, at least not currently.
Also their boat is a classic early 1970s Clorox bottle design so not a dock queen design per se but not a “bluewater” design and certainly not an expedition class design.

Lots of experience and upgrades and prior planning to make this work.

[wkg]

Originally Posted by jeepers

A true Blue water boat has approximately 25 attributes,10 of which are critical.

Can you enumerate the most important ? I have my short list but probably is not complete

[SV_Galateia]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YNHCHp8yjcE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HB_mzcovCJs

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=636Gku5Stzw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zrvQ33CWyHg

These are on point for this topic....enjoy.

These are a series where Adam of Millennial Falcon Vlog interviews the Owner/Designer? of the Kraken 50 and a test sails.