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Old 25-09-2021, 12:44   #16
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

And what about Island Packet ? Probably also out of business
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Old 25-09-2021, 13:46   #17
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

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Originally Posted by Wckoek View Post
Reading the topic on "encapsulated boats", I have the question if people would be willing to pay for new build of old designs.
Those that would don't have the money and those that do tend to spend it on production sailingboats, sailing catamarans and even sailing trimarans.

Edit.
I know Pacific Seacraft are still in business, so there is a niche market for old designs.

As far as encapsulated keels and skegs go in modern sailingboats Kraken Yachts build them that way.

I like it, it was one of the things I found very appealing with the Amel. I never have to worry about the keel or the rudder.
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Old 25-09-2021, 13:52   #18
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

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Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
Those that would don't have the money and those that do tend to spend it on production sailingboats, sailing catamarans and even sailing trimarans.

Edit.
I know Pacific Seacraft are still in business, so there is a niche market for old designs.

As far as encapsulated keels and skegs go in modern sailingboats Kraken Yachts build them that way.

I like it, it was one of the things I found very appealing with the Amel.
Pacific Seacrafts may be old designs, but they do have bolt on keels.
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Old 25-09-2021, 14:20   #19
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

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I like it, it was one of the things I found very appealing with the Amel. I never have to worry about the keel or the rudder.
Never say never.
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Old 25-09-2021, 14:52   #20
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

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Never say never.
Never a good thing to become complacent, let's say least of my worries.
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Old 25-09-2021, 15:47   #21
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

Nope. Multihulls killed it.
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Old 26-09-2021, 04:00   #22
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New build of older encapslated keel designs

The issue is what’s a bluewater boat anyway. All most anything these days over 40 feet can be equipped to perform so called blue water voyages

To suggest you must have an encapsulated keel is in my opinion a completely wrong focus and shows a lack of overall understanding of boats

Blue water is more to do with the prep and the skipper and crew then the boat.
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Old 26-09-2021, 04:29   #23
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

Unless something just changed, the Cape George Marine Works is still making full-keel encapsulated ballast boats. They have four sizes of Cape George--up to 45'--and also the molds for the Bristol Channel Cutters. You can have one factory finished, or buy a bare hull, like I did, and finish it to your liking and budget.
Another place just up the road in Vancouver was building the Lyle Hess Falmouth 34--to my heart and eye the best design of a boat that size that mankind has yet produced.
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Old 26-09-2021, 07:36   #24
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
Those that would don't have the money and those that do tend to spend it on production sailingboats, sailing catamarans and even sailing trimarans.

Edit.
I know Pacific Seacraft are still in business, so there is a niche market for old designs.

As far as encapsulated keels and skegs go in modern sailingboats Kraken Yachts build them that way.

I like it, it was one of the things I found very appealing with the Amel. I never have to worry about the keel or the rudder.
I think the current Amel are bolt on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The issue is what’s a bluewater boat anyway. All most anything these days over 40 feet can be equipped to perform so called blue water voyages

To suggest you must have an encapsulated keel is in my opinion a completely wrong focus and shows a lack of overall understanding of boats

Blue water is more to do with the prep and the skipper and crew then the boat.
The discussion I have with a few boat restorer/designer and builders is that bolt on keel remains a "mystery meat", they build it as designed, but no proof that it worked.
This topic: https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/in...reinforcement/
The keel area if reinforced by steel cage of a sort would be as strong as you want it to be, but if it is connected via grid in the liners like many Beneteau and mass produced models, you do not know what is in there.
"Fiberglass is not a rigid material AND it is viscoelastic" "Keels made of metal are essentially rigid in comparison. Stiffness mismatch makes for all sorts of trouble" "Massive overloading of localized laminate leading to creep rupture or other problems"
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Unless something just changed, the Cape George Marine Works is still making full-keel encapsulated ballast boats. They have four sizes of Cape George--up to 45'--and also the molds for the Bristol Channel Cutters. You can have one factory finished, or buy a bare hull, like I did, and finish it to your liking and budget.
Another place just up the road in Vancouver was building the Lyle Hess Falmouth 34--to my heart and eye the best design of a boat that size that mankind has yet produced.
Interesting, I didn't know much yard still build hull only these days.
How much you pay for the hull of the 31 and does it cost a lot of time and money for you to finish it?
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Old 26-09-2021, 07:40   #25
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

I don’t think it would be a good investment to try building these style boats. I have one (Tayana47) and love it but it seems like the demand for them can be satisfied by reconditioning used boats for a total investment of less than $400K. Even if the boat hasn’t been kept up to date, as long as the hull, interior, and mast are still in good condition, everything else can be updated for $100K-$200K, and there are still used boats that come on the market that have been kept up to date so you wouldn’t have to spend even close to that much to make them almost like new. Fiberglass hulls and aluminum masts last a very long time and I don’t even want to think what it would cost for skilled woodworkers to recreate the interior of my boat in teak, or even any other hardwood. Plus, there are versions of these boats available that were built much more recently than the 1980’s and 1990’s.
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Old 26-09-2021, 07:40   #26
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New build of older encapslated keel designs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wckoek View Post
I think the current Amel are bolt on.

The discussion I have with a few boat restorer/designer and builders is that bolt on keel remains a "mystery meat", they build it as designed, but no proof that it worked.
This topic: https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/in...reinforcement/
The keel area if reinforced by steel cage of a sort would be as strong as you want it to be, but if it is connected via grid in the liners like many Beneteau and mass produced models, you do not know what is in there.
"Fiberglass is not a rigid material AND it is viscoelastic" "Keels made of metal are essentially rigid in comparison. Stiffness mismatch makes for all sorts of trouble" "Massive overloading of localized laminate leading to creep rupture or other problems"

Interesting, I didn't know much yard still build hull only these days.
How much you pay for the hull of the 31 and does it cost a lot of time and money for you to finish it?


Zillions of bolt on keels are sailing all the worlds oceans. A few sailors in NA , which is not a sailing nation in the main are obsessed with integrated keels. The rest of the world has moved on.
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Old 26-09-2021, 11:55   #27
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

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I don’t think it would be a good investment to try building these style boats. I have one (Tayana47) and love it but it seems like the demand for them can be satisfied by reconditioning used boats for a total investment of less than $400K. Even if the boat hasn’t been kept up to date, as long as the hull, interior, and mast are still in good condition, everything else can be updated for $100K-$200K, and there are still used boats that come on the market that have been kept up to date so you wouldn’t have to spend even close to that much to make them almost like new. Fiberglass hulls and aluminum masts last a very long time and I don’t even want to think what it would cost for skilled woodworkers to recreate the interior of my boat in teak, or even any other hardwood. Plus, there are versions of these boats available that were built much more recently than the 1980’s and 1990’s.
A new build could be done for not a lot more than 400k, I am not keeping with price since corona, but maybe it is possible a little under 400k.
Would people prefer to spend the same amount to recondition vs buying new?
A good condition boat is around 70-90k, update it would cost more than 200k plus time lost.
Full keel boat build later than 90's ask more than 100k, a Hans Christian 33 I don't remember whether it is 1994, is asking 120k a while ago, so it would push the price to 300k or more.
Why there is no market for new build of this kind of boat when people are paying for modern boats that are build much cheaply?
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Zillions of bolt on keels are sailing all the worlds oceans. A few sailors in NA , which is not a sailing nation in the main are obsessed with integrated keels. The rest of the world has moved on.
What you said is true, but zillions of bolt on keels aren't designed to be "bluewater" cruisers, even it can be retrofitted to do so
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Old 26-09-2021, 12:16   #28
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

Hmmm. My Valiant 42 is considered "blue water" all day long, yet it has a bolt-on keel...albeit a super beefy lead one on a huge keel stub.

Last quote I saw for one was almost $700k and that was without commissioning (gear, sails...)

Semi-custom, hand-built, offshore spec'd boats are expensive and the market is small.

For much less than a new one you can buy and refit a very fine used example. This is the path I'm following.
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Old 26-09-2021, 13:05   #29
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

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Reading the topic on "encapsulated boats", I have the question if people would be willing to pay for new build of old designs.
Say I can acquire old mold of Tayana/Hans Christian/Valiant, and have it build in Thailand or Philippines, would anyone willing to pay 350-400k for such a new build?
We talk about used boats, but bearing in mind, all the "Bluewater cruisers" design that are build in the 70's-80's are now more than 30 years old, and many of them needing more than one or two years worth of refitting, and the cost of refitting can exceed a new built too.
Pantawee Marine who build Hans Christian went bust 5 years ago, and I just learnt that Tayana build their last 37 at 2016, if they can't make it back then, is it possible to make it in the 2020's?
Has consumerism finally eroded the "bluewater cruiser" market that we have to go for million dollar custom builds?
New bavaria 41 Cruiser standard cost 127 592 € + tax with eletronic add 4000 € equipment add 10000€ total around 160000 $
who buy the worst boat and 300% more expensive.

D&D 54 ft with 3 fridge,AC all equipment is 210000 €

Bavaria C 50 with full equipment is under 400000 $
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Old 26-09-2021, 13:21   #30
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

Hi, Kraken Yachts has a new Kraken 50, which is based on an encapsulated keel design, which they call "Zero Keel". There are recent YouTube videos on it.
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