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Old 24-09-2021, 12:18   #1
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New build of older encapslated keel designs

Reading the topic on "encapsulated boats", I have the question if people would be willing to pay for new build of old designs.
Say I can acquire old mold of Tayana/Hans Christian/Valiant, and have it build in Thailand or Philippines, would anyone willing to pay 350-400k for such a new build?
We talk about used boats, but bearing in mind, all the "Bluewater cruisers" design that are build in the 70's-80's are now more than 30 years old, and many of them needing more than one or two years worth of refitting, and the cost of refitting can exceed a new built too.
Pantawee Marine who build Hans Christian went bust 5 years ago, and I just learnt that Tayana build their last 37 at 2016, if they can't make it back then, is it possible to make it in the 2020's?
Has consumerism finally eroded the "bluewater cruiser" market that we have to go for million dollar custom builds?
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Old 24-09-2021, 12:23   #2
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

First question is: Why did those builders go out of business?

Poor financial management? Increased labor cost? Or nobody buying those style boats anymore?
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Old 24-09-2021, 12:29   #3
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

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First question is: Why did those builders go out of business?

Poor financial management? Increased labor cost? Or nobody buying those style boats anymore?
That is the question I would like to ask.
Labour cost is low enough that people are squeezing it in the SEA region.
Pantawee Marine build 6 Hallmark 480 (Reasonably good Chuck Paine design, full lead keel, a lot of good woodwork) for the cost of a Beneteau (balsa cored) of the same price.
There are more people willing to pay for Beneteau vs Hans Christian for sure.
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Old 24-09-2021, 12:36   #4
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

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Originally Posted by Wckoek View Post
Say I can acquire old mold of Tayana/Hans Christian/Valiant, and have it build in Thailand or Philippines, would anyone willing to pay 350-400k for such a new build?
Nope, todays market is 45 monos for charter in Europe or cats in the Carib. Oh and there is only some many hulls you can build from a mould before you have to make another mould.

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Originally Posted by Wckoek View Post
all the "Bluewater cruisers" design that are build in the 70's-80's are now more than 30 years old, and many of them needing more than one or two years worth of refitting, and the cost of refitting can exceed a new built too.
Sorry must have missed that memo when we bought our 1989 yacht, do you have a copy handy?

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Marine who build Hans Christian went bust 5 years ago, and I just learnt that Tayana build their last 37 at 2016, if they can't make it back then, is it possible to make it in the 2020's?
Very doubtful you can make it work if they couldn't. Remember that saying on how to make $1 million dollars in the marine industry, start with $2 million
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Old 24-09-2021, 12:47   #5
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

Lol. I was just day dreaming of getting a bunch of aluminum boat builders (Cajuns) I know together and start building sailboats.

Market dynamics can be really complicated though. I would imagine the "off-the-rack" producers are merely the survivors who can sell enough units monthly so the gross profit is enough to cover operating expenses, investments in new tooling, and provide some profit.

The "made to measure" and "bespoke" producers ramp up and ramp down labor with orders.

I do not imagine the total market for a older mild with encapsulated keel is large enough in monthly orders to support a consistent production operation.
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Old 24-09-2021, 12:51   #6
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

As far as I know Ta-Yang Shipyards builders of Tayana sailboats is still in business and will still build 37’ and 42’ yachts on custom order.
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Old 24-09-2021, 12:58   #7
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

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As far as I know Ta-Yang Shipyards builders of Tayana sailboats is still in business and will still build 37’ and 42’ yachts on custom order.
That was what I thought so, until I contacted a person of interest this week that he said 2016 is the last.
I don't know about 42.
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Old 24-09-2021, 13:02   #8
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

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Lol. I was just day dreaming of getting a bunch of aluminum boat builders (Cajuns) I know together and start building sailboats.

Market dynamics can be really complicated though. I would imagine the "off-the-rack" producers are merely the survivors who can sell enough units monthly so the gross profit is enough to cover operating expenses, investments in new tooling, and provide some profit.

The "made to measure" and "bespoke" producers ramp up and ramp down labor with orders.

I do not imagine the total market for a older mild with encapsulated keel is large enough in monthly orders to support a consistent production operation.
I don't know about Cajun or the size of the boat.
I think if one can build more than 3-4 a year at the cost of 300-400k, one could barely survive though.
People are complaining about the cost and build quality but no one's paying.
Even refitting cost can exceed more than 150k and take more time than a new build one of these days.
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Old 24-09-2021, 13:09   #9
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

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I don't know about Cajun or the size of the boat.
I think if one can build more than 3-4 a year at the cost of 300-400k, one could barely survive though.
People are complaining about the cost and build quality but no one's paying.
Even refitting cost can exceed more than 150k and take more time than a new build one of these days.
Large amount of very skilled aluminum (oil) boat builders in Cajun Louisiana. However they are slightly underemployed. But you can never get Cajuns to move.
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Old 24-09-2021, 13:40   #10
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

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Large amount of very skilled aluminum (oil) boat builders in Cajun Louisiana. However they are slightly underemployed. But you can never get Cajuns to move.
I agree, there are many seaworthy one off metal designs even, plans aren't that expensive, but you really can't get lower than the cost.
What are the buyers thinking even, in the 2020's?
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Old 24-09-2021, 14:01   #11
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

A friend of mine bought a newly built aluminum design that someone else ordered new for a lot less than the 350-400 (without currency, but I supposed USD)


Here is a link to the builder's website: Mintyachts Icemint 40

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Old 24-09-2021, 14:12   #12
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

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A friend of mine bought a newly built aluminum design that someone else ordered new for a lot less than the 350-400 (without currency, but I supposed USD)


Here is a link to the builder's website: Mintyachts Icemint 40

Yes, the price I suppose to be more than 40 feet.
Last I quote for Tayana 37 is 160-170k in 2014.
Anyway, both are extraordinary designers, but how many people would take 350-400k vs a Eu mass produced boat?
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Old 25-09-2021, 08:54   #13
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

Cabo Rico still has their website up and says it will build what you would like. Don't know if any have been built at all in the last several years.
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Old 25-09-2021, 09:48   #14
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wckoek View Post
Reading the topic on "encapsulated boats", I have the question if people would be willing to pay for new build of old designs.
Say I can acquire old mold of Tayana/Hans Christian/Valiant, and have it build in Thailand or Philippines, would anyone willing to pay 350-400k for such a new build?
We talk about used boats, but bearing in mind, all the "Bluewater cruisers" design that are build in the 70's-80's are now more than 30 years old, and many of them needing more than one or two years worth of refitting, and the cost of refitting can exceed a new built too.
Pantawee Marine who build Hans Christian went bust 5 years ago, and I just learnt that Tayana build their last 37 at 2016, if they can't make it back then, is it possible to make it in the 2020's?
Has consumerism finally eroded the "bluewater cruiser" market that we have to go for million dollar custom builds?
What happened to "If you build it, they will come." --Field of Dreams (1989)

BTW, the word on the Tayana Owners Group (TOG) forum is they are out of business.

The history of the sailing yacht industry is littered with many, many manufacturers that went out of business, understandably for differing reasons. But yet, look at the large number of sailboats that are on the market today...some recent posts to this forum are from folks trying to decide from among too many choices they say. Compared to the auto industry the sailboat market entry financials must not be as intense. Of course, it helps if you have your nation's financial backing to get started.

As with everything else that seems to pervade these days, consumers have many choices to chose from. That makes marketing a key element of the business which in my opinion was sorely lacking in many boats mentioned here. But the changing dynamics of today's consumer favoring cheaply produced boats or the market derived from chartering them are hard to compete against with higher quality construction and lower production numbers on a level playing field.

However, I think a sailing yacht of practical and attractive design with established high quality construction standards for an offshore sailing niche would find an acceptable demand in knowledgeable market.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH
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Old 25-09-2021, 11:27   #15
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Re: New build of older encapslated keel designs

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Originally Posted by MJH View Post
What happened to "If you build it, they will come." --Field of Dreams (1989)

BTW, the word on the Tayana Owners Group (TOG) forum is they are out of business.

The history of the sailing yacht industry is littered with many, many manufacturers that went out of business, understandably for differing reasons. But yet, look at the large number of sailboats that are on the market today...some recent posts to this forum are from folks trying to decide from among too many choices they say. Compared to the auto industry the sailboat market entry financials must not be as intense. Of course, it helps if you have your nation's financial backing to get started.

As with everything else that seems to pervade these days, consumers have many choices to chose from. That makes marketing a key element of the business which in my opinion was sorely lacking in many boats mentioned here. But the changing dynamics of today's consumer favoring cheaply produced boats or the market derived from chartering them are hard to compete against with higher quality construction and lower production numbers on a level playing field.

However, I think a sailing yacht of practical and attractive design with established high quality construction standards for an offshore sailing niche would find an acceptable demand in knowledgeable market.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH
There isn't that much choice when it comes to encapsulated keel/full keel new production boat these days.
Most that we know already gone out of business.
How many are build for those that are still running?
Cabo Rico, Rustler, I haven't heard anyone ordering a new Cherubini since 2016.
When Tayana and Hans Christian is still running, their boat is priced similarly to the Beneteaus of similar length, they still didn't made much orders at all.


Maybe the fact is that people no longer wanted that kind of boat anymore?
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