Is there a Good Downwind Sail that's Easy to Manage for 2 People?

[robert sailor]

I hope the jumping hanks situation was during a real piss up!

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by roverhi

Think you've got your engineering wrong. A double head stay system can be set up with whatever tension on the wire you want. Having two doesn't double the tension on the wires though it does double the strength. The backstay will see whatever the maximum tension is on a single wire.

The problem with double headstay systems is they have to be set quite far apart or the wires can/will sag into each other even at high tension. It's a problem with hank on sails as the hanks can be undone and believe I heard someone say the hanks jumped from one stay to the other when the wires rubbed together.

The backstay will see the sum of the tensions of the two forestays. Given a limit on the tension you can put on the backstay, each forestay will have half the tension of a single forestay.

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by simonpickard

Hello all,

We are doing the ARC atlantic rally this Nov.

(snip) I've read a lot about Parasails, etc, and while they do sound great, and I'm sure work very well, I've also read that they are extremely powerful and can be hard work for crews to take down if the wind picks up.

I was wondering what people think to this? And if there's a sail out there that can aid us for downwind sailing, but is safe for two people to handle.

Simon,
I do not know about the "parasail", but have sailed thousands of miles with the Parasailor from ISTEC and it is very easy to bring down with the built-in sock, even if you do not have the main up to blanket it. If you get a parasailor make sure your halyard lead fitting is up to the loads of a sail that will be up for weeks and will pull up quite a bit at times.
Fair winds
C

[simonpickard]

Been sitting back and trying to absorb all the advice in this thread. Thanks so much for all the posts.

I should have said that our boat is a Hanse 385. So we have a self tacking head sail, so it's not the largest, and then quite a big main sail.

Whenever we've had good downwind sails I've been experimenting and find that when the wind does pick up just having the jib, furled as needed, works quite well. We are not racers and have no desires to push the boat hard to shave a day or two off. I totally understand why some love this but I'm focused on safety and trying to get us, and the boat, there in one piece.

Our reefing system for the main is all led back to the cockpit although I do need to practice more at safely putting these in when in strong weather. Not exactly sure the best method of this would be if running downwind (which I guess we will be?).

We've had 20 knots downwind with just the jib and that seems stable pushing us at a nice 6.5-7.0 I'd guess. Maybe that's enough for us then?

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Also a Doug Peterson design

She sounds like a lovely boat, Ben. You're quite right that Doug's designs are not that extreme and that they suffer much less from the IOR disease than others. It was interesting doing the ARC Portugal and comparing performance with other boats two months ago. Beating close to the wind my 38 footer seems to outperform modern 45 footers (closer to windward as well as faster), and downwind she's not that bad either. Not bad for a 30 year old.

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

. How do you like the C1? I could see something like that being used opposite the regular headsail poled out on a long pole. I guess the key is to get the poled out headsail system sorted first and then add the light weather sail to this.

it's a lovely sail. I had not considered poling her out until this thread (I've just used her mainly on beam reaches), it seems to me that could work really well, and it would give quite a sizeable sail area to work with: with my regular 135% genoa that would be 142 m2 (without the main) on a 6.5 tonne boat. Seems a bit too much, even. I am starting to think that it may be an ideal option to have a smaller C1 type sail designed for tradewinds specifically, made from a heavier cloth also. Perhaps around the 60m2 mark, instead of 88m2.

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

or is it more like an inner forestay, going to a spot near the upper spreaders with runners to support the mast?

This. She goes to just above upper spreaders with running back stays for support which are attached close to the top spreader, and the solent stay is attached on deck about two meters/seven feet from the bow.

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Poling out a staysail works well in a breeze, but it often needs a shorter pole to work, and sometimes a higher clew. I have once used the clew for the reef rather than the real clew to pole out a staysail. Worked well. Not sure about the gap thing, never sailed with a traditional twins setup like that. I have always had them up nearly together and put up with any roll. Sheeting the staysail flat can help reduce the roll, or apparently the reefed main (HT Jim Cate). Cheers Ben

Interesting to read that you've just put up with the roll, especially since you sail IOR designs which have a reputation for more roll downwind in any case. It sounds like it was quite manageable. But still it seems to me that putting two sails on 1 furler is something that can cause problems too often. I like the flexibility of two independent sails that you can manage separately.

Anyway, this all gives me lots of ideas and things to try out.


Onno

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by simonpickard

Been sitting back and trying to absorb all the advice in this thread. Thanks so much for all the posts.

I should have said that our boat is a Hanse 385. So we have a self tacking head sail, so it's not the largest, and then quite a big main sail.

Whenever we've had good downwind sails I've been experimenting and find that when the wind does pick up just having the jib, furled as needed, works quite well.... (Snip)

....We've had 20 knots downwind with just the jib and that seems stable pushing us at a nice 6.5-7.0 I'd guess. Maybe that's enough for us then?

Sounds like you have an answer then, looking at some photo's of the design they look nice, the low cut self tacker might chafe on the pulpit, looks like it stops before the forestay so with luck, downwind the sail will fit out through the gap at the bow, but some chafing gear on the sail might be a good idea. Because of the low cut of your jib, a pole might end up very low, close to the lifelines and vulnerable to digging in in a heavy roll, but the plus is that it can be short, probably slightly longer than the J would work nicely. Personly for this boat for long downwind voyages I would drop the main downwind and put on the sailcover to save on chafe due to the swept spreaders and problems reefing. For lighter conditions any sort of jib would work set opposite. The cheapest option would be a second hand light genoa that goes up the other groove on the furler. Sheet it off the vanged out boom or another long light telescopic pole. Ideally a nylon cruising code zero set to leeward on a foilless furler would add enough drive to enable the main to remain stowed even in light airs. A top down furler with an assymetric would give more drive, but might be more inclined to do nasty things in a squall and collapse and bang about in light sloppy conditions. Cheers


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[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

She sounds like a lovely boat, Ben. You're quite right that Doug's designs are not that extreme and that they suffer much less from the IOR disease than others. It was interesting doing the ARC Portugal and comparing performance with other boats two months ago. Beating close to the wind my 38 footer seems to outperform modern 45 footers (closer to windward as well as faster), and downwind she's not that bad either. Not bad for a 30 year old.

Thats reasuring to hear, haven't yet really sailed her alongside other boats but she did very well on the racing circut and a sistership did fantasticly in a heavy windward sydney hobart, beating much larger more modern designs across the line. Downwind and reaching the short waterline hurts, but in light airs the low wetted surface pays off, or so my theory goes... time will tell.

it's a lovely sail. I had not considered poling her out until this thread (I've just used her mainly on beam reaches), it seems to me that could work really well, and it would give quite a sizeable sail area to work with: with my regular 135% genoa that would be 142 m2 (without the main) on a 6.5 tonne boat. Seems a bit too much, even. I am starting to think that it may be an ideal option to have a smaller C1 type sail designed for tradewinds specifically, made from a heavier cloth also. Perhaps around the 60m2 mark, instead of 88m2.

Give what you have a go, and try the an old genoa to see what works. You can always reef the genoa on the roller reefing and keep the big C1 up for quite a while downwind. Then roll it away and unroll the genoa back to full size. Or set the staysail to leeward to fill in the gap. It will be interesting to hear what ends up working. My only worry is the size of the poles needed for the 135% genoa and C1. They would have to be telescopic for storage.

I am planning to just use a 100% jib, so my standard poles will work, maybe with just a slight extension to help flatten the sail.

She goes to just above upper spreaders with running back stays for support which are attached close to the top spreader, and the solent stay is attached on deck about two meters/seven feet from the bow.

This is really what we would call a inner forestay, a true solent stay runs just behind the forestay, maybe 12 inches (300mm) back and runs up to just below the masthead. It doesnt need runners to support it, being close enough to the backstay. With a solent stay you can set a big downwind sail. But it's hard to tack a genoa through the small gap. You need to remove the stay or roll away the genoa. This explains why you where confused about how the drifter could be hanked on to it.

Interesting to read that you've just put up with the roll, especially since you sail IOR designs which have a reputation for more roll downwind in any case. It sounds like it was quite manageable. But still it seems to me that putting two sails on 1 furler is something that can cause problems too often. I like the flexibility of two independent sails that you can manage separately.

Anyway, this all gives me lots of ideas and things to try out........Onno

Ha, I've only sailed this boat for 800 or so miles. And most of that was forward of the beam. No engine (cracked head) so we had to sail, drift and curse our way back to hobart. Actually she did well, and the downwind bit didn't seem too bad, when the wind picked up she was much happier with the main off, going from twichy to docile as soon as it was stowed.


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[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Give what you have a go, and try the an old genoa to see what works. You can always reef the genoa on the roller reefing and keep the big C1 up for quite a while downwind. Then roll it away and unroll the genoa back to full size. Or set the staysail to leeward to fill in the gap. It will be interesting to hear what ends up working. My only worry is the size of the poles needed for the 135% genoa and C1. They would have to be telescopic for storage.

I am planning to just use a 100% jib, so my standard poles will work, maybe with just a slight extension to help flatten the sail.

The C1 is not a furling sail (neither is the A2), so I can't roll that away but it still gives me plenty of options to try out.

Thanks for all the tips, can't wait to get back to the boat in a couple of weeks and start sailing again.


Onno