Info on new yacht

[Lnewman]

I suspect that your boat is a sailboat built from Samson sailboat plans by some builder. Question would be how well the builder executed the plans if this is true. To each his own of course. I wouldn't want the maintenance involved with a steel boat.
I would crawl all around and look in every nook and cranny of the bilge for rust or places that water can sit.

Seems a lot of the plans were built in ferro cement, which I wouldn't take if given to me.

Plans are still sold by this company. Don't see that particular design on their site.

https://hartley-boats.com/about-us/

[JPA Cate]

Hello, vigilant,

There is a saying amongst yachties, "rust never sleeps." Crusader already has visible rust. Not to rain on your parade, but you did mention she's had some re-plating. My concerns would be relative to rust in places you have not yet seen into. You may need some kind of camera on a cable to use to get a look into ALL the welds. Professionally welded is good, but rust eats iron. Think of all those galvanized roofs you've seen quietly rusting away.

Since you say you do not know much about boats, I would think it could serve you very well to have a surveyor who is experienced in surveying steel yachts take a good look at her. There is a reason why she was given to you....and I'm hoping it isn't revenge.

Are you certain the boat was never used with an engine? That seems a bit unlikely. But the engine is a distraction for now, so first, learn what you have accepted, hull-wise, and then take it from there. There is another saying among yachties, to the effect that the most expensive boats to go to sea on are the free ones. It is not meant literally, of course, but that they will nickle and dime you to death.

Ann

[CassidyNZ]

I have a good friend who used to build steel boats in Cape Town, built his own boat on which he still sails in the South Pacific. His boat was built to exacting standards, welded with state-of-the-art equipment and techniques and prepped/painted using the best materials and processes available at the time, not that long ago, around 2000.

His boat despite climate controlled building environment and intense care and attention to longevity, is showing growing levels of corrosion that require constant attention and not an insignificant amount of work.

So a vessel that has uncharted build history, unknown maintenance regime and is showing a lot of rust neglect will reinforce the understanding that steel boats can be a maintenance roller coaster with more downs than ups.

I have another great friend who in the 70’s and 80’s did two circumnavs on a steel Roberts ketch. He always said that life on a voyage consisted of breakfast, rust maintenance, lunch, rust maintenance, dinner, planning rust maintenance and lying in his bunk at night listening to all the rust coming back.

So whilst a “free boat” should be quite enticing, be cautious about how much money you intend to throw at it. Derive a longish term plan on what you’re going to do with boat (voyages, destinations, etc.), consider what you need to add to/do to the boat to achieve this. It has many times been noted that the cheapest part of building a sailing boat is the hull, deck and bulkheads (HDB). From there, the costs rapidly escalate. If long range cruising is the goal, you effectively now have an HDB.

[vigilant]

Originally Posted by Lnewman

https://hartley-boats.com/about-us/

That's a great website thanks!
Agree on the ferro-cement hulls, too much risk for my liking. Steel boats rust from the inside i'm told. The hull has been fully done on the outside, currently being treated inside. The issue now is with toe rails and deck.

@JPA Cate
"they will nickle and dime you to death" point taken
Engine isn't in it, i have no idea why not and i agree that now it's a distraction. For me step one is quantifying everything including the rust and then working through it until we're sure it's 100%. Until then then no chance to even leave mooring. I have already been overwhelmed by the folks of Simonstown, and i know i'll be leaning heavily on their services and advice.


@CassidyNZ
"If long range cruising is the goal, you effectively now have an HDB."
Understood.
I also have a chance. One last chance at doing something challenging with my life. The alternative is me literally rusting to death here like so many around me. I don't own the boat, she owns me, either we'll win or we'll lose right?
The sea is the greatest challenge on earth, reduced far better men than me to ruin, and yet here we are: as foolish and proud as Odysseus himself

[marcus02]

Maybe change the name to Jihad?

[jimisbell]

Had a Bruce Roberts 44' CC Ketch. Rust is on going...always...and its INSIDE where you wont see it. When the port fuel tank sprung a leak and it was decided the whole side of the boat had to come out to fix it. I gave up and sold her.

[johnrseager]

Congratulations on the new acquisition. That's my boat in the background with the dark blue stackpack and spray dodger (Tallulah). Small world.

[Jimmyhenry]

Diesel tankage - I think around 1000 ltr. We have twice now motored back to NZ from the islands.
Water tankage - similar, plus a water maker for serious offshore.
Engine - no question really, diesel. The good old Ford 2711, or the Perkins 4-236. Heaps of torque and will push the boat easily into almost anything. 3 - 4 l/hr We have same size ketch, and can get 1500nm off 1000 ltr.

[gulfislandfred]

A reliable engine with enough power will make a huge difference in your enjoyment of this (Nice!) boat.



A good used engine, out of a boat that's being repowered, or wrecked, could be a cost effective option. Such an engine might come with controls, engine mounts, exhaust parts, even tanks.



DON'T install a sail drive. Maybe cheaper and easier to install (that's why manufacturers put them in) but maintenance is between difficult and impossible, the leg is aluminum, in salt water, full of electricity and dissimilar metals, and the leg is vulnerable to damage.


(this being a group of sailors, there may be sail drive enthusiasts who have a different opinion. Don't believe any one source, including me. Ask sail drive owners how long since the drive had to be replaced)

[GrowleyMonster]

I own an electric boat. I put the propulsion and 48v system together from scratch. I absolutely highly recommend electric drive. For some things.


Electric is so great for a day sailer or weekender that it is purest idiocy to go with a diesel when you can have a nice EP system for less than $3k including batteries.



For a cruiser, pure electric simply isn't a very good option, unless you happen to be an engineer and have fairly deep pockets. And can tolerate having a couple KW of solar panels all over the boat and hanging off the pushpit rail. The most realistic approach would be a diesel engine and fixed or controllable pitch prop. An electric motor is mounted over the shaft, coupled to the shaft via belts and pulleys. Optionally, a clutch can be added to the belt drive but not really necessary. Very important to have shaft bearings near the shaft pulley. The diesel normally powers the boat over long distances, or while making water or other energy intensive stuff. The shaft turns the prop but it also turns the motor, creating juice for the batteries. By adjusting the regen control you can tailor the load to give the diesel optimum load/speed. When sailing, with the diesel out of gear, the trailing prop turns the motor, generating electricity, though not very much unless you have a very fast boat. When you need instant power to the prop, the electric motor is instant on, no warmup, no hoping it will start. Most importantly, NO MINIMUM IDLE SPEED. This makes a huge difference in maneuverability that you cant even imagine until you have experienced it. No more bumping in and out of gear. Great for "power tacking". Nearly silent. You still get to smell fuel since you still have a diesel, and you still get to buy, pump, spill, and clean up diesel, ditto. But you have a reason to have a huge bank, which can be cool when you really want to run a big load at sea without the engine, for a little while. A boat your size, usually you to with at least a 96V system. 144 to 300 is not excessive. Electric car components are usually the cheap way to go. For smaller boats, under 35' or so, 48v is more common.


Just off the top of my head I would suggest you give electric a miss, on that boat. If you want to go electric, get yourself a Cal 2/27 or a Catalina 30 or similar, and put in a 48v system, no genset, no diesel. You will love it for day sailing or overnighting. Fill up with shore power. Its a beautiful thing. For a big steel cruiser, nah. Just get a diesel. Electric gives you too much stuff you got to learn, and too many compromises. Go straight diesel. Lots of serviceable old 4-108s around that you can pick up cheap. Or get a new Beta 50. IMHO that is all the engine you will need. My Bruce Roberts 44 is a pretty heavy and very beamy boat, and my 4-107 pushes her around just fine. If you must contend with high current, different story.



Have you ever maintained a steel boat before? It can become your whole life. Just sayin. Hopefully since she just came out of the yard, you have plenty of time before the ship cancer starts eating her up again.

[drcat]

A few items
1) Having a survey is critical, others have mentioned rust and quality of construction. Capt'n Fatty (cruiser and writer for Cruising World) once looked at an aluminum sailboat with a newly epoxied hull, scratched a a bubble in the epoxy and his finger went thru the hull- extreme corrosion.
2) for a boat this size the electric motor combined with the Lithium Ion battery bank needed to give it a useful range (like even 20 miles) would be expensive, then you need a way to charge the batteries (solar or generator) so more expense.
3) Consider a marine diesel engine, Most sailors are looking at Yanmars, or Betas or marinized Kubota's. I would think you'd need a 40-50 hp diesel for your size/weight boat and the 3 brands listed would run in the $15K range or higher, especially with professional installation. As a possible ,less expensive alternative, consider a Chinese knockoff. Check out Alibaba and search for HF-480 or HF-485, these are marine diesels of 37 or 50hp, 3 or 4 cyl, that cost in range of $2500- $3700 (excluding shipping) but including transmission and instrument panel. The co can also supply propellers and complete propeller shaft assemblies. Could be partial DIY installation but you'd probably need some professional help.

[St Elmo]

Looks like Barens Sea Trader design.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by St Elmo

Looks like Barens Sea Trader design.

I believe the Barens Seatrader was a hard chine boat, quite flat sides, visible chine at the waterline. This is not (IMHO) a Seatrader.

Of course, I’m often wrong

[vigilant]

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. I'll comment on each but i'm already furiously googling away to try and keep up with the conversation

@marcus02: I could go full hog (!) and fly the banner Kamikaze, but no I need to ask the boat her name ;-) that's a different thing.

@jimisbell: I've owned an Audi motor car, sounds like the same problem ;-)

@johnrseager: Howdy neighbour, thank you! I'll be down in October, will be nice to meet you. I have MANY questions

@jimmyhenry: Thanks for that info, also thanks for using LITRES and not gallons
"1500nm off 1000 ltr." Here in SA we're running at about $1/l of diesel, not sure how that compares with elsewhere.

@gulfislandfred: I agree 100% on listening to advice and doing the research. I am fascinated at all the varying views on this, and clearly everybody has their own solution to essentially the same problems.

@GrowleyMonster: A lot of good advice there, thank you. You're seeing electric as an affordable add-on to a diesel which is interesting, you want both, which is similar to my adding a diesel genny to supplement charging. Everyone seems to agree that in the harbour electric is vastly superior because of the instant response to throttle forward or reverse. That alone is a good reason to have it as primary or secondary.
This adventure will become my whole life hopefully. My youngest finishes school in 5 years and by then i want to be day sailing and so on and hopefully ready to cast off.

@drcat: Thanks for those ideas! Alibaba isn't somewhere i have looked and clearly i missed a trick. I need to look around locally too, but SA seems to be difficult as we don't have a huge number of boats around, just an impression. The people around are very knowledgeable and highly skilled artisans. The harbourmaster at Simonstown confirmed the work done was by expert welders, i imagine that as a stamp of approval.

@St Elmo: Thank you very much yes it does look similar. More to the point when i look at an example here: Ocean Cruising Sea Trader 41 ft Yacht for sale in Cumbria United Kingdom (GB)
It says:

She was designed by E S Barens and built in Durban by Desmo Engineering, completed in 1988.

So here i have a brand new clue to follow up on, not saying it's the same design as mine but multiple correlations means they could be cousins of a sort. Most interestingly this yacht was originally outfitted with a junk rig and then retrofitted as a bermuda rig.

@CassidyNZ: As above, thank you there's a lot of useful info here. Durban in the 80's seems to have been quite an interesting place for yacht building.

[GrowleyMonster]

Affordable? Not so much. For a boat your size you would need an EV motor and controller, and a large battery bank. Quite large. Maybe a few EV battery packs, though they are not without their drawbacks. I like FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) batteries, but with the power requirements you would have, you would want the highest energy density possible so that means one or another Lithium chemistry. For a boat under 35' or so, yeah you can go pretty cheap in spite of what the naysayers naysay. The hybrid system I described is simply the most practical or I should say the least impractical implementation of EP for your boat. Could be nice to have. If you are willing to learn a lot about electrical engineering. This has been done, make no mistake about it. But the fact that the technology has been around for quite some time now, and there are few adopters, ought to tell you something.


A generator for charging batteries to spin a motor to turn the prop is very inefficient. That is why using the propulsion diesel for charging is good. Also there is a certain overhead involved simply with running the engine. When it is doing no work at all, it is still consuming fuel. So by doing two things at once, or more, you are running one engine and suffering the running overhead of one engine instead of two, to accomplish the same work. There is increased fuel consumption by adding load to the engine but less than running another engine to carry that added load. Most boats are overpowered, anyway. The big diesel is loafing along and a diesel runs best with the least wear and tear and the best fuel consumption for a given amount of work, when it is sized properly to the load and operates at the optimum speed. Pushing the hull faster is less efficient. Performing additional tasks can be more efficient. Running the freezer, making water, charging a propulsion bank, things like that.



The basic block diagram of a hybrid propulsion system is deceptive in its simplicity. In fact, you have to be able to make a lot of components play nicely together and optimize for greatest efficiency and lowest maintenance costs.


If you are determined on going electric no matter how difficult or costly, the hybrid system I described is the way to go. It will save fuel, make no mistake. By adding solar and regen (which will slightly reduce speed under sail for only a modest amount of charge) you are able to utilize "free" energy. The years it would take to recover the extra cost of components and installation I won't even hazard to guess, but probably longer than the life of your diesel.



Electric propulsion is an idea that it is easy to fall in love with but is only practical under limited sets of operational environments unless you are a very knowledgeable person indeed. 99% of owners of boats over 40' are best off with straight diesel drive. For smaller boats day sailing or overnighting, it is excellent, especially for repowering an old beater boat on a budget but also new construction. (don't pull a perfectly good diesel to replace it with electric!) Going electric without the cost and complexity of a hybrid setup is pretty simple and straightforward. Big 48v bank of golf cart batteries, 10kw PMAC motor, controller, simple controls, and you got a very good system that is easy to maintain, once you learn FLA battery operation and maintenance. Shore power charging is simple and cheap. But this is not describing your boat. Over 35' or 36' changes the game a lot.