Hull Shapes and Behaviour in Heavy Seas

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I have. I sailed as navigator on Icon, a new 65' carbon fiber flyer in the 2000 Sydney Hobart Race. The conditions were rough and the winds strong, and we experienced both upwind and downwind sailing. The boat was not difficult to handle. We were forth to finish, if I recall correctly.

....

Icon is another Bob Perry design.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I guess I'm sort of tired of reading on this thread that IOR boats are "crappy".

.....

I agree that a blanket crappy is just wrong. There certainly are IOR boats that were extremely squirrelly downwind and a handfull to sail with their large overlapping headsails and small mains. Doesn't mean there weren't plenty of far better designed IOR boats that continue to serve cruisers and club racers well.

[sandy stone]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Doesn't mean there weren't plenty of far better designed IOR boats that continue to serve cruisers and club racers well.

I agree, in fact I own one. I think it's a great sailing boat, if it rounds up it's my fault for not paying attention when it was trying to tell me to reduce sail. When it does round up it's a pretty slow occurrence, not like you blink and you're pointed in the wrong direction all of a sudden. My wife and I have cruised it some 1500 miles along the Gulf coast in perfect comfort, however the more recent Jboats I race against are indeed faster.

[NevisDog]

Musta been hogwash when we were rolled by that wave after running under bare poles for 3 days. I musta dreamt it.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Musta been hogwash when we were rolled by that wave after running under bare poles for 3 days. I musta dreamt it.

And this was where and in what boat? Did your dream include these details?

Jim

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

And this was where and in what boat? Did your dream include these details?

Jim

Wow! The knives are out. Condemn IOR rating rule and the boats it spawned, leading to less seaworthy, less sea-kindly, and definitely less stable designs, as many have done when they realised what abominations that design rule had created, and we are treated as liars. Okay, if that's how we are allowed to be treated on CF so be it. I'll continue try to provide information of value in comparing different hullforms in big seas, as the OP requested; I have no idea what Jim and Wingssail are trying to provide. First I thought it was balance - now it seems they may have convinced themselves that every stupid design ever created is equally as good as any other. Is that really the sum total of your knowledge, to offer to someone new to sailing? "Just buy any old raceboat, they'll be just as comfortable, safe, and stable in a blow as any other design."

Yea right!

[daletournier]

Hi, I'll tell you what Jim and Wingsail are trying to provide..... experience, lots of it. Theres several others here that are providing the same, not just reciting numbers that maybe relevant in a perfect world.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Hi, I'll tell you what Jim and Wingsail are trying to provide..... experience, ...

So, give it then.

How do the different hull designs they have sailed compare in big seas?

At least TRY to stick to the subject.

How do they compare for comfort - in big seas?
How do they compare for recovery after a knockdown?
Have they even been in a knockdown???

Try to stick to the subject, okay?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

So, give it then.

How do the different hull designs they have sailed compare in big seas?

At least TRY to stick to the subject.

How do they compare for comfort - in big seas?
How do they compare for recovery after a knockdown?
Have they even been in a knockdown???

Try to stick to the subject, okay?

Mate, it's already been given, we have had no problems regarding heavy weather etc, the answer is fine to all of the above.

To clarify, last year In a strong gale mid Indian ocean at approximately 12° S running under bare poles my reasonably modern hull design was fine, in fact surprisingly comfortable when down stairs, it was very surprising when I'd been downstairs for a while and then came up just how much noise and kaos was happening out side.

My boat dosent leak a drop, yet in these big rollers we were getting some drops of water through the side hatches, boat was obviously flexing a little, not that I could notice it. This was the only problem and it wasn't in anyway a problem.

Under bare poles we were running at approx 7k. Surfed at 16.3, once again no problem.

I sat out side near the wheel most of the night not because the boat felt in any danger but for own piece of mind. My thoughts were I would not like the autopilot to let go while coming down these waves. How big were the waves? I don't know, but they were big.

I repeat my modern design, fat bummed, fin keel, spade rudder not only performed as designed to BUT was comfortable.

2014, in my previous freedom 32, fin keel spade rudder, hove to for 7-8 hrs of the west coast of Sumatra in a mild gale. The boat hove to under jib alone, it was very comfortable as reported by my girlfriend who dosent particularly like being at sea. I have open cpn track to substantiate I was heaved to. Resumed sailing at dawn one the won dropped down to to mid 20's.

I'm hesitant to mention this one because I wasn't at the wheel therefore can't confirm that this was a full knockdown. Dave my crew reported it to be so. He put it on Facebook, therefore it must be true

Approx 10nm of shore near East London in quite reasonable conditions we experienced a knock down as reported by my crew Dave who is an experienced sailor. All I can say is one minute I was a sleep the next I was lying on my port side cupboards trying to climb up the bed. I do not know how far over we went BUT the cockpit had alot of water in it and Dave reported the water came over the leeward side, the big primary winch hit the water. I got to the cockpit, and over the next ten mins we had 5-6 very waves extremely close together waves.

We were running under Hydrovane, no reefs as the weather was mild, a big wave turned the boat a little, not alot but enough, the Hydrovane couldn't get us back straight another before the next big one caught us. It was a combination of size and very very short period.

We were fine for the next 5-6 waves because Dave started hand steering therefore we could see them coming and not allow ourselves to be caught. With in ten minutes everything was back to normal!

My only explanation (which is a guess) is that there must of been a big sea mount or something, remember we are cruising the south African coast where the algulhas current can be very strong, I figure for a short period the waves just really stacked up due to sea floor and fast sW setting current. Confused seas have been reported of this part of the coast.

Here's the important part, Sukha sat back up very quickly and continued as nothing happened, she shock it off and we sailed on, NO PROBLEMS.

I can go on, for instance the 700nm hard on the wind passage from the Seychelles to Madagascar this year, where we spent two nights less at sea that buddy boats due to our ability to sail fast in rough conditions.

NEVER ONCE have I felt in danger due to the hull design I cruise in.

Now, there are several experienced sailors here that sail widely in modern boats that are telling you that our boats do very well. Don't you think Jim & Ann have seen tough conditions, I'm assuming you accept they are honest people? I dare say they have more miles under their belts than most here. You have people like Paul L who obviously knows what's he's talking about based on real world experience, you have the previous poster clearly stating his experience in his ex now cruising racer, you have me that has owned a full keel boat and now cruises extensively on a modern design telling you that your assumptions based on books don't always work the way they should in the real world.

You do not want to hear our beliefs based on experience.

We are not attacking we are defending against your biases.

[boatman61]

No bias here as stated but it seems my experience of my boat doing a 180 in seconds on a wave is hogwash..
I presume that until one has experienced a knockdown or roll it must be hogwash as well..
But then WTF do i know..

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by boatman61

No bias here as stated but it seems my experience of my boat doing a 180 in seconds on a wave is hogwash..
I presume that until one has experienced a knockdown or roll it must be hogwash as well..
But then WTF do i know..

To all of you who took personal offence to the word "Hogwash", I apologize. Several people who I have respect for, based on their well expressed comments, felt I was doubting their word. It was not so.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Wow! The knives are out. Condemn IOR rating rule and the boats it spawned, leading to less seaworthy, less sea-kindly, and definitely less stable designs, as many have done when they realised what abominations that design rule had created, and we are treated as liars. Okay, if that's how we are allowed to be treated on CF so be it. I'll continue try to provide information of value in comparing different hullforms in big seas, as the OP requested; I have no idea what Jim and Wingssail are trying to provide. First I thought it was balance - now it seems they may have convinced themselves that every stupid design ever created is equally as good as any other. Is that really the sum total of your knowledge, to offer to someone new to sailing? "Just buy any old raceboat, they'll be just as comfortable, safe, and stable in a blow as any other design."

Yea right!

ND, you are getting a bit shrill here.

You said that you had been rolled after running under bare poles for three days.

I asked where that had been and in what boat... seem to be reasonable questions to me, for we are supposedly discussing how different hull designs perform under heavy conditions.

A few of us have actually sailed IOR designs as long term cruising boats, and found them to be satisfactory platforms. None of us have said that all IOR designs would meet this criterion. On the other hand, you seem to say that they are ALL unseaworthy and unsuitable for cruising. There is a considerable disconnect here, one worth investigating.

No accusations of lying have been laid on you or anyone else. However, you have placed words in our mouths that were never uttered;

" Is that really the sum total of your knowledge, to offer to someone new to sailing? "Just buy any old raceboat, they'll be just as comfortable, safe, and stable in a blow as any other design."

A somewhat distorted rendition of what we've tried to express. I leave it to others to evaluate your motives in such fabrication.

And I still would like to hear about your being rolled in some detail.

Jim

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

So, give it then.

How do the different hull designs they have sailed compare in big seas?

At least TRY to stick to the subject.

How do they compare for comfort - in big seas?
How do they compare for recovery after a knockdown?
Have they even been in a knockdown???

Try to stick to the subject, okay?

OK, You want my opinion based solely on my personal experiences (and I'll do my best to stick to the subject).

How do they compare for comfort in big seas? I have done offshore passages on Westsail 43, Baba 40, and Fast Passage 39. Only one case were the seas quite big: Crossing the Columbia River Bar on one really rough day in a strong westerly. The Coastguard told us the bar was "rough and dangerous". We were tempted to stay outside but nobody wanted to stay below because the boat rolled a lot and they got seasick and everyone freezing cold on deck. We decided that going in was better. We had no problem but the boat required active steering. Comfort? Well, we were sailing, not sitting below hove to in big seas. Nobody went below.

I have done many offshore passages in a variety of modern designs with fin keels, and several times in big seas. Whether sailing or hove too, the modern boats were comfortable. There is no jerky motion or wallowing. Whenever we've been below in really bad conditions we are quite surprised to go on deck and find out how rough it is.

For comfort in heavy weather, I'd rate them about equal
Sailing in Heavy Weather, there is no comparison. The modern boats have performed better in all conditions and are generally easier to handle, requiring smaller sails, less heavily loaded lines and gear, and balanced helms. Going upwind, its a matter of preference. The full keel heavy boat will rise up on the waves and slosh down in the troughs and there is less jarring, but plenty of motion up and down, little forward. it's softer but it moves a lot, burying the bow frequently. The flat bottomed modern boat will jar and pound but continue to make headway and if you bear off to the heading that the heavy boat is able to make, its really a lot more comfortable.

How do they compare for recovery after a knockdown?
You really have to define a "Knock Down". If you mean a sudden extreme heeling due to a gust of wind, possibly including a loss of steering control and flogging sails, then I have never experienced this on a heavy, full keel boat. On the modern boats I've sailed on it has happened. Generally we've been able to bear off quickly and recover by employing full rudder, although some times sail area had to be reduced. Once I was held down for an extended time by a prevented main after an accidental jibe. The boat was horizontal. The preventer was jammed. My wife stuck her head out and calmly asked, "What is going on?" I replied, "We jibed and I'm trying to jibe back."
I have always appreciated the powerful helm in a fin keel spade rudder boat, and the STABILITY of a wide boat with a deep ballasted fin keel.
Forward motion is required to recover from that kind of knock down. A boat which keeps moving, or resumes forward motion quickly will recover quickly.
Beamy boats with form stability recover more quickly than narrow boats with deep canoe bodies which are often tender (opinion)

Have they even been in a knockdown???
This is an interesting question. I am often questioned by sailing newbies have we ever been in a knock down?. I sometimes think this is really the boogie man that everyone fears, but they don't really know what it is. (I certainly don't, other than what I said above) but it just stands for some unknown which is a really terrible and scary thing that no one wants to do.
Have we been suddenly heeled to nearly 90 degrees? Yes. On a heavy boat? No. On a modern boat, it's never been a big deal. I've been on an IOR boat heeled totally on it's side with the keel completely out of the water and horizontal. The biggest concern was that somebody would fall off, they were hanging from the winches. We took down the kite and resumed sailing.


How'd I do, Mr Nevisdog?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

So, give it then.

How do the different hull designs they have sailed compare in big seas?

At least TRY to stick to the subject.

How do they compare for comfort - in big seas?
How do they compare for recovery after a knockdown?
Have they even been in a knockdown???

Try to stick to the subject, okay?

Now I have a question or two for you.

1. I have been wondering why there is this obsession for the "Heavy Conditions" which many of us have never seen? What is it that you fear so much that you forgo all else in order to find some vessel which you think will withstand these mythical conditions? Do you like sailing? If so, why would you tolerate many years of poor sailing performance, day in and day out, just to have the supposed security of your bullet proof steel box on that one day when you are faced with the "Perfect Storm"? Wouldn't it be easier just to avoid going into those seas, to avoid the known bad weather areas and seasons? I can tell you it is not that hard. Possibly you are just afraid to go out there at all.
2. My wife has been following along with this thread. She had the following suggestion: "Maybe, whatever boat they have, they should just stay home."

[B23iL23]

Good points Wingsail.

I had a discussion with an owner of another boat once about "sea going" cockpits. He was critical of my open style cockpit vs his narrow one. He was adamant that his was far better, much safer in the event of a storm it would be more secure. This despite the fact that a boat spends 95% of it's time at anchor or in a marina, bolt upright , where a "sea going" and secure cockpit means absolutely zero. We had already sailed many many miles in some crazy conditions in this "unsafe" cockpit and were still smiling.



I've been sailing since the early 70's (as a kid) and sailed many oceans, in big seas and big winds but I would pick a modern design every single time over an older long keeler/steel boat/whatever.



Also as you have said, the chances of me getting caught out in that once in a lifetime storm where it just comes down to pure survival as so low as to be negligible. Modern weather routing, faster boats all make avoiding these situations much easier and in the meantime, I'll enjoy the modern fast design that makes sailing much more enjoyable and less of a chore.

Originally Posted by wingssail

Now I have a question or two for you.

1. I have been wondering why there is this obsession for the "Heavy Conditions" which many of us have never seen? What is it that you fear so much that you forgo all else in order to find some vessel which you think will withstand these mythical conditions? Do you like sailing? If so, why would you tolerate many years of poor sailing performance, day in and day out, just to have the supposed security of your bullet proof steel box on that one day when you are faced with the "Perfect Storm"? Wouldn't it be easier just to avoid going into those seas, to avoid the known bad weather areas and seasons? I can tell you it is not that hard. Possibly you are just afraid to go out there at all.
2. My wife has been following along with this thread. She had the following suggestion: "Maybe, whatever boat they have, they should just stay home."