Hobby horsing

[Steadman Uhlich]

In discussions like this, I think illustrations or photos are always helpful.

[cheoah]

I've done some hobby horsin', although I think some might be saying theres a distinction between it and pitching. I've pitched violently in tall standing waves, and I guess a little hobby horsing in a cape dory 30. This over thousands of miles of coastal passage making in the cape dory, but that's it. I sail a bigger crealock now and it seems fine.

Buy something you like that is sound, don't overload the ends, and you'll be fine.

Interesting point vivid, but after reflection, the buoyancy in the ends, with the mass low and centered, keeps the ride smooth. I think Zee has experienced this first hand, but it's too nuanced for me to comment on authoritatively. I just keep that $hit upright and make miles, and try not to load the ends with heavy stuff.

You're looking at mostly coastal passagemaking, and have a wide latitude in boat choice, but it is a choice, and you have to feel good about it. Don't underestimate the joy of a swim platform or nice aft cabin, since you'll likely be at anchor far more than at sea. Shade, breeze, water. All higher on my priority list


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Apologies for typos, truly too busy to edit

[Vivid]

"after reflection, the buoyancy in the ends, with the mass low and centered, keeps the ride smooth. I think Zee has experienced this first hand, but it's too nuanced for me to comment on authoritatively. I just keep that $hit upright and make miles, and try not to load the ends with heavy stuff."

Keeping the mass low is important for ultimate stability, but I'm afraid you are just restating the conventional wisdom about centering it. Let me try another illustration. Anyone who has been on a sailboat with its mast removed for one reason or another will attest that its motion becomes wild because of the removal of the angular inertia of the mast. If the conventional centering argument were correct wouldn't the removal of mass up high tend to "keep the ride smooth?" Sometimes conventional wisdom is wrong and I think this is a case of that. Hoping to hear from an engineer or architect on this point


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[s/v Beth]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Yeah, lots involved in hobby horsing. Fine ends with overhang and wide beams maybe. (think of a ball with weight overhanging each end!) But old narrow boats with overhangs do it quite well also!
I think the smaller the boat the higher the tendency... that may be due to typical wave periods. Thinking back, my Perry 47, Tanton 44 both had long waterlines and medium fin keels didn't hobbyhorse. My Contessa 26 and Rawson 30 with longish keels had short waterlines and did. The Hans Christian 38 would HH pretty bad when trying to go into a chop and it had a real long waterline and full-ish keel. I think if you go with a long-ish waterline it's about as much as you can do....

Pretty good review. My Valiant does not. I would buy an older one with blisters for 60-80 k. Best boat I have every seen out in the swells....

[JPA Cate]

Vivid,

The shape of the ends of the boat does affect what happens when it starts to pitch, which is the beginning of hobbyhorsing. The waterline length has an effect, because, in short chop, if the waterline is long enough, the boat sort of bridges the peaks of close spaced waves. The hull shape also has an effect, because, if you have a fine, but flared entry, the bow goes down after the wave peak passes, but the flare (actually the buoyancy created by the flare) slows it going down. Now, if she carryies much of her beam all the way aft, that broad section will inhibit the stern going under when the bow goes up, but if a pinched stern, has much less resistance to the water. [Our first cruising boat was an old IOR, which though broad of beam, had extremely fine ends, and would hobby horse like mad; our present boat, with fine, flared entry, but carrying her beam aft can get stopped by a wave, but does not hobbyhorse. We spent 17 yrs. cruising the one, but only 11 on this one, so far.] When the mast has gone overboard, indeed the motion is twitchy, the mast being absent and not doing its duty of roll stabilization.

I think probably that if you're going to use only physics, you won't get to the core of the matter, because there are hydrodynamics, wave periods, wind strengths, and hull shapes that are all part of the discussion when it comes to hobby horsing.

For the OP, buy the boat that makes your heart go pitty-pat, and keep the heavy stuff amidships and low, as much as you can, just like Zee, and others have said. That's the straight skinny.

Ann

[Neptune's Gear]

Ann, + 1 As usual, right on the button!

[maxingout]

Charter the boat before you buy if you can. Then you can find out if the motion of the yacht suits you.

[kenL]

I thank everyone for technically trying to define what we all have experienced on the water in many styles of boats and sea conditions. I know that in a strong headwind where waves are steep and close as they are in the Straits of Juan de Fuca that all boats in the 35-38 foot range which I am looking for will hobby horse and since many boats such as my Endeavour 32 with the 80 gallon water tank under the v-berth and with 75 feet of chain and a 35 lb. anchor on the bow there is no chance to relocate that load. Additionally my family of five are at the other end in the cockpit and a 120 lb. Minto dingy is hanging on davits off the stern. My boat does not hobby horse except in steep close chop in high winds. So assuming that we have loaded what we are able in the correct places I would assume that a boat with a narrow entry to the sea such as the Alberg designs like the Cape Dory 36 or the Alberg 37 will slice into the seaway with less lifting motion until the waves contact the hull closer to the mast or amidships thus thus lifting the vessel more from the center and not the ends which should minimize this hobby horsing effect. Ultimately I am looking for comfort in the seaway in my next boat as I now enjoy with my E-32. Are there any owners with boats of this type and size with any comments.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Vivid

"after reflection, the buoyancy in the ends, with the mass low and centered, keeps the ride smooth. I think Zee has experienced this first hand, but it's too nuanced for me to comment on authoritatively. I just keep that $hit upright and make miles, and try not to load the ends with heavy stuff."

Keeping the mass low is important for ultimate stability, but I'm afraid you are just restating the conventional wisdom about centering it. Let me try another illustration. Anyone who has been on a sailboat with its mast removed for one reason or another will attest that its motion becomes wild because of the removal of the angular inertia of the mast. If the conventional centering argument were correct wouldn't the removal of mass up high tend to "keep the ride smooth?" Sometimes conventional wisdom is wrong and I think this is a case of that. Hoping to hear from an engineer or architect on this point


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Think inertia also. Heavy weights in both ends generate a lot of inertia once they start to move. So the heavy weight in the stern will exacerbate the tendency of the bow to dive, because once the mass in the stern starts moving upwards, it will continue to move upwards until the motion is counteracted by an opposing force (displacement of the bow in the water).

This inertial movement will induce more "hobby-horsing" with each bow dip/lift.

eiMove the weght closer to the center and the inertial effects lessen.

[Vivid]

Ann, I'm just talking about one issue which can be considered separately from the hull shape issues you mention, which are obviously more important than this issue. I'm not talking about boat design or selection,I'm just talking about the advice to concentrate moveable weight amidships in a particular boat that has already been designed and selected. And yes, considered separately, this is a question of classical physics.

Carstenb, I have already said this is a question of inertia and I agree that the stern going up is equivalent to the bow going down and vice versa. As I said, pitching is rotation and the issue is angular inertia. What angular inertia means is that heavier ends will resist any change in velocity from a given force (say a particular wave) more than lighter ends. The bow will be more able to push through a wave of a given size and less able to be pushed up. It won't go up as high or down as deep in a given wave as in the case of lighter ends because it is pitching more slowly which means it goes a shorter distance in a given time. As a result you will get a smoother ride. The question for comfort is not how deep you pitch,it's how quick the motion is,which applies to all the forms of motion a boat is subject to, but especially pitching and rolling. And of course comfort is just one design factor and can be in competition with other factors. Raceboat design at its extremes for example pretty much ignores comfort. And a boat that has started to sink and is full of water will have a very "comfortable" sluggish motion until it capsizes and/or disappears under the waves,a case where comfort and safety are in opposition. There may be reasons other than comfort to concentrate moveable weight amidships. But I'm pretty sure it will make hobbyhorsing worse.

Questions of this kind are not resolved by discussion or argument, they are resolved by experimentation and experience. I'm just trying to get the community thinking about some conventional wisdom that I'm pretty sure is wrong. Not going to rock this horse any more, though.


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[wsulli]

Originally Posted by zeehag

hobby horsing is not rotational but like a hobby horse--front-back. not around. a hobby horse has rockers. only went front back.
i remember these items, as i am older than dirt.
how many of you naysayers have sailed a hobby horsing boat?? i have. you want to remove weight from ends and place into center and low.
i have also sailed plowing boats, pounding boats, and rolling boats.

never forget where your boat's pivoting and balancing points are .. lol it makes all the difference.
each style boat is different. learn what you have and trim appropriately for your boat.
AS hobby horsing leads to pitchpoling, one must trim the payload properly to prevent that situation.

Zee you are forgetting the central spring type hobby horse popular at parks and play grounds also marketed with a cross wooden base to help stop tipping,didn't work.
I do agree with you on the other points you make.

[Stumble]

Vivid,

In a static situation you might be correct, but a boat under sail is anything but a static system.

Weight in the ends does make the bow more resistance to movement, but once moving it keeps moving. So for a one time event more weight may be helpful, but in the open ocean there is always the next wave coming in a few seconds. Long low volume overhangs, more weight in the ends, and short waterling compared to overall leingth add to the hobby horsing.

In my experience the worst boat I have ever been on for it was a Columbia 50'. Absolutely stunning at the dock, and incredible under sail in smooth water. But as soon as the waves built the bow would rise 6' or more then on the down stroke bury the bow under water. It was the first time I can remember I ever got seasick in relatively benign conditions. As a wave came the bow would rise so high you lost the horizon and as the wave passed would crash back to the waves throwing up a huge spray.

Compare this to a Santa Cruise 52' i worked on. The SC while the same overall length has an additional 13' of waterline leingth (33' vs 46). The SC went thru ocean waves like they weren't there. A slight rise as the bow passed the wave, the whole boat would lift a tad as the wave moved to midship, then a slight dip as the stern was lifted. Total motion felt like just a couple of inches. From the wheel you never lost the horizon, and there would just be a tad of spray from time to time.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Vivid

1. Questions of this kind are not resolved by discussion or argument, they are resolved by experimentation and experience.

2. I'm just trying to get the community thinking about some conventional wisdom that I'm pretty sure is wrong. Not going to rock this horse any more, though.

1. Which is exactly what all those folks with real world experience are trying to tell you.

2. You're wrong. The community is not biting. You might want to consult with some industry standard reference texts which would explain what our real world skippers have been trying to explain to you, to answer your physics and inertia issues.

I always get a kick out of someone who tests conventional "wisdom." It is a VERY healthy approach. In this case, not so much.

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by wsulli

Zee you are forgetting the central spring type hobby horse popular at parks and play grounds also marketed with a cross wooden base to help stop tipping,didn't work.
I do agree with you on the other points you make.

this is not the kind of hobby horsing you will find in a real boat.
HOBBY HORSE was a marque of play toy with a horse shaped body and rockers under it. i know. we had one in my youth.
you want to keep the load low, centered and between the masts of a ketch, centered in a slopp... yes slopp, as they are sloppy in weather and difficult at best to manage solo. is exactly why i chose to cruise a ketch . for almost 60 years i have sailed, and mainly sloops, and yes in a blow you want a ketch. i know i did in gom..
i found when i keep the secondary anchor and chain on bow, i have difinitive hobby horse action and a plowing bow. not cool, not comfortable and not desired.
when i relocate that anchor and chain down low and more centered, it works just fine and dandy without any obnoxious sensations of hobby horse.
the spring loaded style from recreation parks do not have the kind of action found in boats.
try again.
mebbe sailing would help to educate on the exact action you will find in a real boat, which is loads different than in a computerized model or in numbers spewed forth by allegedly knowledgeable folks lacking in the real world experiences of sailing a boat requiring proper load trim.\

please forgive my delayed response to this anteek thread, but the message is still appropriate, as this is a constantly recurring problem.

[Delancey]

Weight in the ends of the boat or at the top of the mast robs the boat of righting moment and causes hobby horsing. That's what most people miss.

If you want to resist hobby horsing, you want to keep the center of gravity as low as possible by keeping the weight out of the ends

I used to race in a very competitive offshore one design fleet. The boat to beat, the guys who most consistently went out there and kicked ass, took hobby horsing seriously enough that they didn't have any masthead instrumentation.

This was a pretty hardcore fleet with a lot of guys investing a lot of money to go out and beat each other.

I really appreciated the fact that they went without the masthead unit because I saw a lot of techno wennies in that fleet who would spend all their time and effort focused on their laptops and data instead of paying attention to what was happening on the racecourse and to the wind and sea state.

Suffice it to say these guys consistently beat a lot of very excellent sailors. Not having a masthead unit was one of the reasons.