Hobby horsing

[kenL]

I am starting to look for my next boat which may still be a few years away and enjoy the 1980,s style boats that have slightly larger overhangs, traditional lines and portholes with a full or cutaway or somewhat full keel design. I hear that these boats hobby horse and can be slower under sail. My present boat is an Endeavour 32 which is a fantastic cruiser but would prefer just a little more room as our cruising trips get longer and we get older. I am more concerned with cruising comfort, a large enough cockpit for five or six to be able socialize in port and also be blue water capable even though extended coastal cruising may be as as far as we get. I have been considering the cape dory 36 or the cabo Rico 34 or 38 or the Cape George 36. I am looking in the 34 -38 foot range with a price tag of 60K-90K depending on features and upgrades. Any thoughts or other boats I should be looking at.

[barnakiel]

My experience is that boats with fine ends (underwater ends, not overhangs) hobbyhorse more than boats with fuller ends.

Also, boats with short ballast hobbyhorse more than boats with longer ballast slabs.

The above are my personal impressions. My senses my be misleading me.

I love Cape Dory 36 and would buy one. I also like Cabo Rico, I know one called Tiburon (I believe identical with Cabo Rico 38). I would buy this one too. Cape Dory to be the faster upwind and Tiburon possibly more interior space and a better downwind boat.

Cape George I do not like as I think them somewhat heavy. BUT they were built real strong as proven by what we could see when the one we were looking at fell off a truck. Great boats just not 100% what I like.

IMHO Only Cape Dory 36 could hobbyhorse in some very unlikely scenario like when you place wrong gear in wrong places and then sail into some odd choppy waters. Still, top of my list.

b.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Since you like your Endeavour 32, have you considered or ruled out the Endeavour 37?

It comes in three layouts (plans) and has a roomy cockpit, nice wood inside, and cruising room. I prefer the A plan. Also within the budget. Several available for about $30k.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, kenL.

[kenL]

Steady Hand, I have not seen or sailed on a Endeavour 37 but would consider one. I know that the Endeavours were not really made for offshore work so I am leaning toward those boats that are. My long term plans may take me down the west coast and through the canal to the Caribbean and probably a truck ride home, but who knows she may come home on her own bottom so I want to make sure that she is able.

[henryk]

Form a few boats that i owned in the past, nothing could beat Tayana ,37, or 42 , They were all custom built, and built for offshore work. The teak inside is unmatched with other boats in this price range, just stay away from teak decks. Right now I own a Corbin 39, nice boat too, but no comparace to Tayana.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by kenL

Steady Hand, I have not seen or sailed on a Endeavour 37 but would consider one. I know that the Endeavours were not really made for offshore work so I am leaning toward those boats that are. My long term plans may take me down the west coast and through the canal to the Caribbean and probably a truck ride home, but who knows she may come home on her own bottom so I want to make sure that she is able.

Howdy.

What follows is written in a truly friendly tone of voice and with the sole intent to help.

I understand the desire to have a "blue water cruiser" capable of "offshore" sailing. I want one too.

But I have sailed on an Endeavour 37 for over 2,500 miles offshore on one passage and through a strong gale with high seas and high winds. The boat handled fine, even during the heavy weather. So, I have confidence that the boat can make it.

The same boat I sailed on had just finished another 2,000 mile voyage a couple of days prior to my time on it. The boat sailed from California to Hawaii and then back. Was that 4,500 miles (the round trip on two long legs/passages) enough "offshore" testing for a cruising boat? I think so.

While the Endeavour line was not necessarily designed as a "Blue Water Cruiser" (and that is a term with a variable or subjective definition) it has proven to me that it has the ability to carry a crew safely across oceans and in some comfort (relative to other boats).

Put another way, if you told me you have a Endeavour 37 and you offered me a cruise in the Caribbean, I would not hesitate to join you because of the brand of boat (in this case).

Also, for even more space and "live aboard" comfort, you should see an Endeavour 43. I considered one of those for live aboard as it has a very nice aft cabin (in CC model) with a very comfortable saloon (good headroom), nice teak interior, and galley etc. It would be very nice in the Caribbean.

While the style of these boats (external styling) may not look traditional as some or salty as some (and those are things I like to see or find appealing), they do have their own mix of features, space, and comfort that can be appreciated too.

[zeehag]

ANY boat will hobby horse when not trimmed correctly with load in center and down low in boat.
hobby horse activity can be lessened if not removed by loading boat in a sensible fashion, with load not predominantly in both ends.
i notice the difference in my formosa when i have not loaded her correctly.

[Vivid]

Just a brief point on one of the physics principles involved. If you think of hobbyhorsing as rotational oscillation of a linear object, it seems clear that moving mass from the ends toward the center is exactly the wrong approach. If you are walking on a balance beam do you put your arms at your sides? No, of course you extend them. Does the novice tight rope walker align her balance bar with the wire??? No, of course she holds it at right angles to the wire. The more mass at the ends of the boat the more she will resist going up and down at her ends and the slower, and more comfortably she will do so. No comment about the other aspects of the problem, but I'd like to hear from anyone who can shake my faith in this simple issue of inertia.


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[a64pilot]

I think it's more of a period or frequency thing, get a wave action that corresponds with the natural frequency of the boat and the greater mass at the ends will help continue this motion.
Without this mass, the movement may well be dampened out.

[robert sailor]

My view is that when the back end is the same shape as the front end (teeter taughter) you can be sure it will hobby horse. Fine bows and wide sterns seldom have these issues.

[Dave Lochner]

Originally Posted by Vivid

Just a brief point on one of the physics principles involved. If you think of hobbyhorsing as rotational oscillation of a linear object, it seems clear that moving mass from the ends toward the center is exactly the wrong approach. If you are walking on a balance beam do you put your arms at your sides? No, of course you extend them. Does the novice tight rope walker align her balance bar with the wire??? No, of course she holds it at right angles to the wire. The more mass at the ends of the boat the more she will resist going up and down at her ends and the slower, and more comfortably she will do so. No comment about the other aspects of the problem, but I'd like to hear from anyone who can shake my faith in this simple issue of inertia.


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Two thoughts. First is angular momentum. (I think that's what it is called, its been a few decades since college physics.) Think of a hammer. It's ability to drive a nail is due to the weight of the hammerhead and its movement. On a boat as the bow rises and then drops the momentum will drive the hull down in to the water. The heavier it is the deeper the bow will bury. At the same time 2 other forces come in to play, the buoyancy of the bow and the height of the stern. As the bow buries the stern rises and gravity being the way it is will want to pull the stern back down with the buoyancy in the bow will want to force the bow back up accelerating the stern's drop back in to the water. The heavier the stern is and the faster it comes back down will determine how deep it will go and you have the opposite effect, the buoyancy pushes the stern back up and gravity pulls the bow back down. Rinse and repeat and soon the boat is oscillating or hobby horsing.

Reducing weight in the ends of a boat will reduce the angular momentum thereby reducing the depth to which the bow will sink and the height of the stern.

A second factor is hull form. Since I'm not a naval architect I can't speak to specifics, but some hull shapes and bow shapes will be better at reducing hobby horsing than others. The greater the buoyancy in the bow, the less the bow will sink as it comes off a wave, reducing the tendency to hobby horse.

Modern racing sail boats do not have transoms for a couple of reasons, one to let water drain quickly and second to reduce weight in the stern.

[Cheechako]

Yeah, lots involved in hobby horsing. Fine ends with overhang and wide beams maybe. (think of a ball with weight overhanging each end!) But old narrow boats with overhangs do it quite well also!
I think the smaller the boat the higher the tendency... that may be due to typical wave periods. Thinking back, my Perry 47, Tanton 44 both had long waterlines and medium fin keels didn't hobbyhorse. My Contessa 26 and Rawson 30 with longish keels had short waterlines and did. The Hans Christian 38 would HH pretty bad when trying to go into a chop and it had a real long waterline and full-ish keel. I think if you go with a long-ish waterline it's about as much as you can do....

[Vivid]

But this is not a hammer, it's a dumbbell. The more weight at the ends the harder the ends are to accelerate, so the lower their velocities with given forces and the slower they go.


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[zeehag]

hobby horsing is not rotational but like a hobby horse--front-back. not around. a hobby horse has rockers. only went front back.
i remember these items, as i am older than dirt.
how many of you naysayers have sailed a hobby horsing boat?? i have. you want to remove weight from ends and place into center and low.
i have also sailed plowing boats, pounding boats, and rolling boats.

never forget where your boat's pivoting and balancing points are .. lol it makes all the difference.
each style boat is different. learn what you have and trim appropriately for your boat.
AS hobby horsing leads to pitchpoling, one must trim the payload properly to prevent that situation.