Have You Foiled ?

[IslandHopper]

Hmmm, while it looks like fun I can't see it been taken up by the any of the average cruisers I know, like me they are so weighted down with **** they would need a couple of RATO bottles strapped to the sides to get any sort of lift

[Dave_S]

How much power do they use ? I suspect it takes a lot to drive the foils so long distances in heavier boats may be limiting for now.

But I'm sure it's coming.

[mowerandy]

I have foiled once, briefly, in a Windrider F16 Rave about 15 years ago. Breeze was annoyingly light, but puffed to about 10 knots at one point and she stood up gracefully about 5 feet in the air just as the bow wave from a huge champagne cruiser went past without even touching us, then settled gracefully back down like a chicken taking the nest, right after the wave passed. Two on the bridge of the cruiser - one dropped her drink and both mouths wide open!
I have seen the same boat foiled at speed and it is really something to behold. Rediculously fast and silent, and the acceleration!

I also remember reading a book about someone who foiled a cruising mono all around the Pacific back in the fifties or sixties. I think it was about 30 foot long, and I remember old black and white photos of this thing foiling were scattered through the book!

[44'cruisingcat]

I've ridden an air chair a few times. Does that count?

[EzzyD]

Originally Posted by softgoodsint

Well, I'd be suspect of Mr. Photoshop having a hand in that photo, for two reasons, the sea looks remarkably calm for the wind that he'd seemingly be needing or appears to be in the sails, and that he's neither healed over, nor hiked out to counter healing. Just to ask, you don't suppose that original post was say 8 days ago (April 1st), do you?
In any case, Cheers.

It is real.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I believe current foiling boats are ultra light, ultra expensive, manned by professional racing crews, and the videos I have seen are all being manually helmed when foiling.
Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think cruisers are usually retirement age couples. It may be one day that with enough money a computer controlled foiler will be made, one that can be single handed, cause in reality I think cruising boats are in fact single handed while the other half rests.
Myself I'd go for all the speed I could afford, and that I could handle. I think speed is a selling point.
It'll happen maybe, but I don't think I will ever see it.

Other than beach cats and small dingoes that's pretty much it. Other than the G4/F4 I don't know of any large boat that's isn't an all out race boat. The the G4/F4 to my knowledge havent foiled without a full race crew of pros onboard.

The thing is it I simply possible right now to buy a 'cruising' foiling Catamaran, the F4 is commercially available right now. But it is so far from being ready for the average sailor... frankly the average sailor really isn't capable of sailing it safely. Even assuming automatic computer controlled foils (which wouldn't be hard to implement), the problem I simply the crew simply isn't ready.

The mental acuity it takes to sail a boat that is doing 25kn is incredible. It isn't just the loads, thinking that far ahead is critical, being able to drive the waves when you are moving twice the wave speed is difficult. Make a mistake and you bury the bows going fast enough to flip the boat, break bones...

Frankly the first place where lifting foils will play a part are bigtrimarans like the Rapido 60. But they won't be full lifting foils they will be C boards. There is a real argument for C foils on a fast cat like a Gunboat, but that's pretty much it.

Frankly it's possible now, just call DNA and order it, but it isn't safe for about 99.99% of cruisers.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

How much power do they use ? I suspect it takes a lot to drive the foils so long distances in heavier boats may be limiting for now.

But I'm sure it's coming.

Actually driving a boat on foils takes almost no rudder input. At foiling speeds one of the hardest things to learn is how little rudder input you can use. Too much rudder and the boat will litterly you across the boat.

Think of it this way, stand up in the back of a pickup truck doing 25mph. How tight of a turn do you want to make? More than just tiny adjustments can even flip the boat from the rudder alone.

Part of this is you need to trim the boat to have almost no weather helm. Very very balanced rudders are a necessity.

[foufou]

Remember that foils been around for one hundred forty seven years. Alexander Graham Bell in 1870 foiled. I don't know if he was first lr not. Not much interest for many years. Us navy built a foiler in 1945. Dave Kieper built a foiler trimaran in late 1960s, a cruising boat tl my eye. He sailed it to New Zealand and back. Still not much interest for a few more decades.... I think there will be cruising foilers. Not computer controlled necessarily but with wands sensors like the Moths

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Watch the video, it's either legit, or someone went to extreme lengths to fake it

It legit.

Here in Kingston there are a couple Laser foils. I've watched them. Its incredible. They rise up, just like in the video.

What they don't show is how difficult it is to get up on the foil, and once up...to stay up. They worked a long time to get a foil run of maybe 1 minute. Then repeated. So yes, super fun, but the technology is not yet practical for the masses.

[Elie]

In my opinion, this is the future of cruising. Progress will percol down into the sailing communauty. One fact is sure: A lifting foil push upward effectively reduce the displacment of any boat, even when there is no actual 'flying'. Reducing displacment, is the best way to increade significantly the performance of any boat. I think we will see in the future not too far 'performance' cruising sailboat beeing offered by big manufacturers.

[barnakiel]

Technology-wise, I think the fact that now there are foils made in alloy rather than in hi-tec carbon may open some new doors. Those Russian foiling daytrip boats built in the 60'ies were also alloy, I think. And they were pretty popular up to the wall. I have seen them take trips across the Baltic back in the 70'ies. So to say we can built light and strong things without having to use expensive racing oriented technology.

Another aspect is the sails. The early AC boats had wings but the more recent boats have plain dacron sails. This brings the cost down and makes the whole game more popular.

Another thing is that apart from full foiling (Moth-like) there are many projects going on where the foil is dispatched horizontally from the hull - increasing the righting moment, lessening the need for ballast, lifting the boat up and making it more stable, and faster.

Look at IMOCAs with foils and those without - the foiling ones offer smoother ride. They are not foiling (=flying, like the G thing or the Opti) but they do employ the same technology in an alternate way.

I am looking forward to flying one soon. With foiling beach boats available at around 10k now I think I still may get lucky before (kicking) the bucket.

So I believe a less expensive foiling cruising cat is just around the corner. And foils in cruising monos will, imho, pop up and slowly become more mainstream.

We may as well end up with the ideal one day - a cruising mono without any permanent ballast.

b.

[denverd0n]

Those little sailing dinghies that effectively use a foil are all capable of planing. They all far exceed hull speed -- every single one of them -- as a matter of routine. I cannot see a boat that is limited by its hull speed ever being able to make effective use of a foil. And I cannot see a monohull that is capable of comfortable, long-distance cruising ever being able to significantly exceed hull speed as a matter of routine.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Stumble

(...)

... frankly the average sailor really isn't capable of sailing it safely. Even assuming automatic computer controlled foils (which wouldn't be hard to implement), the problem I simply the crew simply isn't ready.

(...)

Yes.

But would you agree that much as we can talk of 'average crew' in terms of money, body weight or age, in the real world the averages do not exist (or are less common than the 'outliers')? The distribution of sailing skills seems hardly normal.

By the above I intend to say that there are huge numbers of pleasure boaters who have sound but purely leisure skills while at the same time there is a number of sailors, also cruising sailors, who actually have some amount of quite decent sailing skills.

If my assumption is right, then this opens up a niche for the builders to jump in.

I believe I could learn to sail a foiling cruising cat. Looking forward to hear from a mass market cat manufacturer who needs a guinea pig to prove that a middle age cruising couple can take a foiling cruising cat from one side of an ocean to the other in speed, comfort and complete safety. ;-)

I mean it.

b.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by Elie

In my opinion, this is the future of cruising. Progress will percol down into the sailing communauty. One fact is sure: A lifting foil push upward effectively reduce the displacment of any boat, even when there is no actual 'flying'. Reducing displacment, is the best way to increade significantly the performance of any boat. I think we will see in the future not too far 'performance' cruising sailboat beeing offered by big manufacturers.

Interesting points.

I would think that the effect would be greatest on smaller boats...say under 30 feet. These boats are limited by the effect of waterline, making them slow. They are also light/small enough that the upward forces vs their weight is reasonable. Also, they are the boat most affected by adverse wave conditions. Lifting above the waves, or just enough lifting to mitigate the waves, would be significant to increasing both speed and comfort. I think bigger, heavier boats would require too great a foil surface area to achieve the same affect. This would be a very interesting area of research for anyone with access to an experimental tank facility.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Those little sailing dinghies that effectively use a foil are all capable of planing. They all far exceed hull speed -- every single one of them -- as a matter of routine. I cannot see a boat that is limited by its hull speed ever being able to make effective use of a foil. And I cannot see a monohull that is capable of comfortable, long-distance cruising ever being able to significantly exceed hull speed as a matter of routine.

What do you think about the following course:

We take a good, but not extreme, boat (examples: a J-121, a Jeanneau SF3600, a Pogo 30), we add foils to add lift and stability, we remove some ballast (not needed now that we derive more stability from using the foil). We end up with a faster, lighter, better boat.

OK, this is not a Hans Christian nor a Valiant BUT this is what very very many French and other EU sailors are sailing right now (sans-foil though).

Ideally, a mono boat would have NO fixed ballast. Removing the ballast drives the SA ratio to 2x. This in turn joined with a foil makes her fly.

I think Figaro 3 is just the first step. With so many hulls there will be a lot of damage and thus a lot of feedback. Benneteau will have all the feedback. Expect some form of foils on cruising Benes within 5 years or so.

There are many, equally valid, ways to do our cruising. Some travel with their floating mobile home, others travel light. Those who travel light will buy into foilers.

If you cast one look over Transquadra boats vs. ARC boats, you will possibly see the niche I am talking about.

It is perhaps too bad that Transquadra virtually does not exist in the global anglophone cruising landscape. Still, it is where the tip of the cruising iceberg is.

Transquadra 2017-2018 | Transat solitaire et double réservée aux amateurs.

b.