Ferro Cement Hulls ?

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by BillAU

Now hear this, now hear this...The corect term for a Ferro Cement hull or anything else built using the method, is...Wait for it!... Steel reinforced plaster (SRP)

[Sound of crickets chirping]

Nope, don't think that's going to fly. Ferrocement is a tradition and I like traditions (well, most of them lol).

Originally Posted by BillAU

Each to his/her own I say but...I'll buy my SRP (Ferro Cement) boat just as soon as I'm ready to make the move and I don't give a damm about resale value...

Resale value is not a concern for me either. No one ever makes money selling a boat, except the broker. In some respects a ferro is less of a loss issue, you pay less for it, but it depreciates less, so the drop in value is perhaps less providing it's maintained.

Originally Posted by BillAU

I'll pass the yacht on to one of my kin when I pass over, till then my SRP boat will be my home.
BTW, anyone want to buy my nice plastic 22' sailboat...You can see her here

Works for me. That also illustrates the cost v value point. My 35' ferro cost me the same as Bill is selling his 22' plastic sailboat for. No offence to Kittyhawk, nice little boat. But that extra 13' of length and couple of feet of beam are worth their weight in gold (or cement...)

AussieGeoff

[BillAU]

Originally Posted by AussieGeoff

Works for me. That also illustrates the cost v value point. My 35' ferro cost me the same as Bill is selling his 22' plastic sailboat for. No offence to Kittyhawk, nice little boat. But that extra 13' of length and couple of feet of beam are worth their weight in gold (or cement...)

AussieGeoff

Yes Geoff mate but my boat is a 1984 FG boat and not one of those FC boats so it's worth a lot more money...Just ask anyone who owns a FG boat
Whisper to Geoff...Geoff mate, don't go telling everyone just what a great boat a well built FC is and what great bargans they are, keep that information between us mate...We don't want to talk the price up now, do we mate

Bill
Australia

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by BillAU

Yes Geoff mate but my boat is a 1984 FG boat and not one of those FC boats so it's worth a lot more money...Just ask anyone who owns a FG boat

Actually, I've been told that. Frequently.

Originally Posted by BillAU

Whisper to Geoff...Geoff mate, don't go telling everyone just what a great boat a well built FC is and what great bargans they are, keep that information between us mate...We don't want to talk the price up now, do we mate

Oh heaven forbid. Especially when I just found out mine wasn't amateur built in SA as I originally thought, but apparently professionally built in Melbourne. Builder is apparently someone called Cutler in Rosebud.

Gotta be happy with that.

AussieGeoff

[DolphinBuddy]

Hi Marline,
I purchased my first ferro cement sail boat in June of this year. "Wren" a 1974 Ryan Marine built Flicka Gaff rig cutter with a Yanmar inboard. I purchased her for 1/4th the price of a fiberglass Flicka because she is ferro cement. I single handed her from Middle River Maryland to Rock Port Texas arriving Rockport September 28th. 90 days on the water 3900+ miles. Wren, with her 37 year old ferro cement PROVEN hull is as solid a sailboat as one could hope for and much stronger then fiberglass if ever in a collision. THE ONLY PROBLEM WAS THAT I COULD NOT INSURE HER, NOT EVEN LIABILITY because she is ferro cement. BUMBER AND NOT FAIR! I sold Wren three days after arriving at my destination to the first person that looked at her. When will soon be on her way to Belize with her new owner David. I sold Wren for what I paid for her and had three offers on her during my 90 day voyage. If you find a professionally constructed ferro cement boat at a fair price and don't care about insuring it, in my opinion ferro cement is a good choice if saving $$$ is important, otherwise go with what you can insure.
Kevin

[Ex-Calif]

Just got back from 5 days in Phuket on my brothers "new" boat. The steering is hydraulic and instead of sailing the islands for four days, we blew a hydraulic hose on day one going to the fuel dock. Spent 4 days getting tools, new hoses made and doing other odd jobs. Even though we didn't get to sail, 5 days living on the hook is better than a month at home - LOL.

What I didn't really count on was the need for special tools like, hammer drills, jack hammers, cement mixers, steam rollers, dynomite blasters and so on just to do simple jobs. Getting through cement is a byatch!

FG boats just need a hot knife and glue gun - LOL

Alethea Ann is fero and my brother decided to go now rather than wait until it was too late - ferro is on average a lower cost option because for some reason it has a bad rap. Anyway, he has 2 new sails on order and including that and the hose repair has about $25k invested. He's already done Phuket-Langakawi-Phuket.

As far as I am concerned a ferro boat is just fine for cruising and Alethea Ann is completely set up and ready to go. Sure there's gonna be maintenance, stuff will break and the surveyor really should have caught these chafed hoses but fixing boats in exotic places is part of the fun!

[BillAU]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Just got back from 5 days in Phuket on my brothers "new" boat. The steering is hydraulic and instead of sailing the islands for four days, we blew a hydraulic hose on day one going to the fuel dock. Spent 4 days getting tools, new hoses made and doing other odd jobs. Even though we didn't get to sail, 5 days living on the hook is better than a month at home - LOL.

What I didn't really count on was the need for special tools like, hammer drills, jack hammers, cement mixers, steam rollers, dynomite blasters and so on just to do simple jobs. Getting through cement is a byatch!

FG boats just need a hot knife and glue gun - LOL

Alethea Ann is fero and my brother decided to go now rather than wait until it was too late - ferro is on average a lower cost option because for some reason it has a bad rap. Anyway, he has 2 new sails on order and including that and the hose repair has about $25k invested. He's already done Phuket-Langakawi-Phuket.

As far as I am concerned a ferro boat is just fine for cruising and Alethea Ann is completely set up and ready to go. Sure there's gonna be maintenance, stuff will break and the surveyor really should have caught these chafed hoses but fixing boats in exotic places is part of the fun!

So your Bro has, Quote: 2 new sails on order and including that and the hose repair has about $25k invested. End Quote:
The time will come for sails to be replaced on all sailboats and the hoses are part of the maintenance program. Still, for $25 grand, he has a good live aboard boat with nice new sails and hydro hoses to sail the world on

As for, Quote: He's already done Phuket-Langakawi-Phuket. End Quote:
Sounds to me like your Bro has his priorities right, the cost of living the dream is...As I'm sure you know...Priceless!
Half his luck, I wish I was in his place but...My time will come

Your point on the surveyor catching those chafed hoses, gets me thinking...Are half the surveyor around really worth the fee they charge

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by BillAU

So your Bro has, Quote: 2 new sails on order and including that and the hose repair has about $25k invested. End Quote:
The time will come for sails to be replaced on all sailboats and the hoses are part of the maintenance program. Still, for $25 grand, he has a good live aboard boat with nice new sails and hydro hoses to sail the world on

As for, Quote: He's already done Phuket-Langakawi-Phuket. End Quote:
Sounds to me like your Bro has his priorities right, the cost of living the dream is...As I'm sure you know...Priceless!
Half his luck, I wish I was in his place but...My time will come

Your point on the surveyor catching those chafed hoses, gets me thinking...Are half the surveyor around really worth the fee they charge

Interesting question about the surveyor. Insurance company needed an up to date survey, surveyor is "certified.". Surveyor is on the clock and the boat is 40 odd feet on deck. The electric systems alone are staggering. I rewired some 12 volt stuff and tracing what works, what doesn't work and what is disconnected could take weeks. As it was I was aboard 4 1/2 days and at preesent brother and I only have a "working" knowledge of the electrics.

Electric system - 12 volt engine generator, 240v 3kva generator, solar and windgen - 12 and 24 vdc chargers (run off 240v) - engine start & gypsy are 24v. House is 12vdc and 240v. A link 10 system that I can barely operate. We manage to keep everything charged and running but it is still a bit of a mystery.

That doesnt even start to describe the other systems on the boat. 5 bilge pump systems, hot and cold water with electric and diesel "cabin" heater options. House pressure hot and cold water systems. Nav and instruments include, gps, autopilot, radar, chart plotter (pc based). Engine system include 6 cylinder Lehman diesel, shaft, cutlass bearing, shaft brake etc.

Then of course is all the rigging, sails, hull, masts, booms, gaff etc., etc., etc.

The surveyor had two days on the boat including a one day in water sea trial. I think he did as good a job as he could in the time allotted. To me the hose chafe was obvious in hindsight as there was evidence around the actuator. The important things for the surveyor to me were the hull, through hulls and seacocks, engine systems and running and standing rigging. These are the no go items for me. Additionally an ops check on all systems and electrics to point out the obvioous.

Surveyors have their limits. They are human and on a time limit.

[Yachts66]

Oh boy, I'll get in trouble for this, but here's my $0.02. In my experience most surveyors are not worth the fee they charge. In my life I've only had one who proved his worth, one out of half a dozen, not good odds. So I now do my own surveys. I purchased a audiogage for testing metal, I also have a video scope just like the big boys! (Harbor Freight, less than $100). Now, I've spent most of my life knocking about boats, so maybe I'm a tad more educated than some, but I for sure don't know it all. Still, far too many surveyors provide a lot of fluff and pages of pics, but still manage to miss the big stuff. Having said this, I think it certainly does pay to have a good diesel mechanic take a gander at the main engine and genset if there is one. There again, the problem is finding a "good" marine engine mechanic! <sigh> As always, let the buyer beware, enjoy the ride fixing broke down boats in exotic locations is what it's all about anyways, right?

Regards,

Thomas

[BillAU]

Yes Thomas, I guess finding a good surveyor is luck of the draw but as Ex-Calif states, we need them to even try getting insurance on a boat

Like you Thomas, I spent a large part of my life playing with boats, timber fishing boats, glass boats, steel boats, small boats and large merchant ships, and I have read a lot on the subject of FC boats so I feel I could carry-out my own boat survey but insurance companies want the boat to be surveyed by a registered marine surveyor and they, the insurance companies, don't seem to care if that surveyor has experience surveying FC boats or not.
I will seek only 3rd party liability insurance for the FC boat I buy, I plan to spend most of my time in remote locations and not tied-up in a marina somewhere but I will need to haul the boat from time to time and I guess I'll need insurance to have the boat hauled-out.

Bill
Australia

[Yachts66]

There perhaps, but in the USA I'm told it's all but impossible to get insurance on one. In any case I still think the best insurance policy is an oversized anchor and all chain rode!

Regards,

Thomas

[clockwork orange]

Does anyone know what the reason insurance companies give for not insuring ferro boats? it just makes no sense to me, especially when folks say they cant even get liability coverage,what are they worried about, that a ferro boat is going to do more damage to someone elses property, ridiculous, with liability they are really insuring your competence, not the boat, if you are going to cause damage to someone elses property you are going to do it regardless what material the boat is built out of. I personally dont care so much about full coverage but no liability effectivly makes it very difficult to use your boat, even if you keep your boat on a mooring how do you take on fuel, pump out your holding tank or haul out for the winter or repairs?
Perhaps its more this insurance issue that keeps the prices of ferro boats down than anything else. Btw,you generally cant get insurance on boats of any material without having a survey done by someone with letters behind his name regardless of wether he knows his ass from a hole in the ground.
Steve.

[Yachts66]

Dunno about ferro, but my steel boat was denied coverage because, "if you hit another boat it will do too much damage to it (the other boat)." Unbelievable but true!

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Does anyone know what the reason insurance companies give for not insuring ferro boats?

As far as I can tell, the reasons are largely historical. The insurance companies got burnt by poorly constructed home builds in the 70's and 80' particularly and as a result they blackbanned insuring them. As I mentioned previously in this and other threads, a hull built in, say, 1974, (mine) that's still afloat and not leaking is almost certainly sound. In my case, I've just discovered it was in fact pro built, so I'm guessing it's not going to fall apart in a heap of rusty rebar and cement dust anytime soon.

Unfortunately, insurers seem to be in the once bitten forever shy category.
I understand it's not too hard to get a 3rd Party Property Damage policy for a ferro hull, but essentially impossible to obtain comprehensive, with or without a survey, at least here in Australia. For a $14,000 boat like mine, that's not as big a problem as it might seem, but it's a concern if the boat was a total loss for some reason.

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

It just makes no sense to me, especially when folks say they cant even get liability coverage,what are they worried about, that a ferro boat is going to do more damage to someone elses property, ridiculous, with liability they are really insuring your competence, not the boat, if you are going to cause damage to someone elses property you are going to do it regardless what material the boat is built out of.

I understand some of this reluctance is because a ferro that, say, broke loose of its mooring might conceivably bash several plastic boats into tiny pieces. Naturally, a steel hull might well do the same. I saw a post in this thread suggesting it was difficult to get 3rd Party for a steel hull for similar reasons, at least in the US. Not sure about here. When I take delivery, I'll be looking into the insurance side, and I'll post the results here.

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

I personally dont care so much about full coverage but no liability effectivly makes it very difficult to use your boat, even if you keep your boat on a mooring how do you take on fuel, pump out your holding tank or haul out for the winter or repairs?

Well, depends where you are. In my case it's possible to dinghy fuel out and even water, though it might be tedious. I don't have a holding tank so that's less of a problem (there are only one or possibly two sea marinas in the state of SA with pumpout facilities and you can use a macerator toilet with direct discharge provided you are 3nm from shore. Obviously a lot stricter in other places, so yes, it could be a problem. As to winter haulout, many don't usually bother here. It's not like parts of the US where you get that funny white stuff instead of water in winter, but that's clearly an issue for you guys. Not sure if there are public wharves where you can pull up and do that in the US, there are a few here where you can tie up for a few hours to resup etc. Not sure about slips and yards. Haven't got that far yet. There is a public (City Council) owned DIY facility here that doesn't seem to require insurance, as their own policies cover almost everything anyway. Obviously it's different where you are.

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Perhaps its more this insurance issue that keeps the prices of ferro boats down than anything else.

It's certainly a contributing factor. I got a 35' foot ferro for 14k when a similar size steel or glass boat would be easily double that and probably more. This is not necessarily a bad thing. I researched ferros before buying and it does let you get a much larger boat for your money - provided the hull is sound it's an advantage, even with the insurance issues. Minor hull repair (or even fairly major repair) is relatively cheap and simple and not beyond the ability of the owner. Mine has some rust bleedthrough in places on the outer hull and deck, it's minor and from the mesh it appears. I could just paint over it and ignore it but I'll probably dig out the plaster and hit the affected bits with some neutraliser, or even replace some of it if really necessary, then dry it out and replaster. Tedious but neither expensive nor difficult. I have plenty of time, and not a lot of money, so this suits me as well.

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Btw,you generally cant get insurance on boats of any material without having a survey done by someone with letters behind his name regardless of wether he knows his ass from a hole in the ground.

It seems to depend on the boat, glass boats that aren't too old are usually accepted without survey, depending on their value, at least here, I know my friend with a 22' glass boat didn't when he bought it some years back. Older glass boats they might want one, depends on the company. With ferro one of the huge issues is finding a surveyor that actually knows enough about it to give an intelligent appraisal, as many seem to just launch into an anti-ferro diatribe when you ask. I had two do that. I had some knowledgable (with ferro) people covertly make an inspection and between that and the pics of the boat, I was able to make an informed decision without spending a grand or more on a survey that would probably have told me little if anything more. So the money I saved will go towards repair and refurbishment instead.

I have a friend with an older glass boat and his current insurer is now saying they won't insure it because of it's age. 22' Duncanson Trailer Sailer, pro built and solid as a rock, so it's pretty silly in my opinion. It's got some minor osmosis issues, not in the hull, but in the umpteen layers of antifouling it's collected over the years. It cost him $7k, and he's had it something like six or seven years, so probably not going to change his life too much one way or the other.

One approach I'm going to try is to see if they will insure for specific events, such as destruction by sinking or fire, or simply exclude some specific events, such as structural failure due to corrosion or whatever. I'm going to get an insurance broker to look into this for me.

AussieGeoff

[BillAU]

I found this article on FC fishing boats and thought it would be of interest to others as I'm sure the same applies to sail boats.
The Article:

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by BillAU

I found this article on FC fishing boats and thought it would be of interest to others as I'm sure the same applies to sail boats.
The Article:

I have a copy and the information is useful. I've found a couple of 'how to' articles on ferro repair, including one by the owner describing how he repaired a serious hull breach. Took a month, most of which was spent ensuring the patch was kept wet to ensure proper curing. The actual repair work was only a few days.

The owner posted the details in the forum and has a very nice PDF of the process, with pictures on his website. Look for Wolfaroo in one of the ferro threads. I downloaded the pdf and its pretty much a perfect 'how to' of the process.


AussieGeoff