Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-04-2013, 22:46   #1
Registered User
 
stevensuf's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Back in Scotland!
Boat: Gib sea 43
Posts: 840
Images: 10
Excessive Weather Helm Even on Reach

OK so recently Ive noticed ive been getting a hell of a lot of weather helm, even with a reefed main and reaching not pointing, im wondering if my genoa is starting to get baggy and starting to loose power or some strange rudder growth?

now if it was a baggy genoa it should be more pronounced in pointing and less an issue in reaching, but its strong on a reach,

Now what would cause a boat to develop string weather helm or have i been in the caribbean too long and forgetting how to trim my sails?
__________________

__________________
http://nicnsteve.blogspot.com/

If the pen is mightier than the sword, then my keyboard must be a nuclear missile!
stevensuf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2013, 23:17   #2
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Excessive weather helm even on reach

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post
OK so recently Ive noticed ive been getting a hell of a lot of weather helm, even with a reefed main and reaching not pointing, im wondering if my genoa is starting to get baggy and starting to loose power or some strange rudder growth?

now if it was a baggy genoa it should be more pronounced in pointing and less an issue in reaching, but its strong on a reach,

Now what would cause a boat to develop string weather helm or have i been in the caribbean too long and forgetting how to trim my sails?

Did you reef the main but not go to a smaller headsail?
__________________

__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2013, 23:24   #3
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: Excessive weather helm even on reach

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post
OK so recently Ive noticed ive been getting a hell of a lot of weather helm, even with a reefed main and reaching not pointing, im wondering if my genoa is starting to get baggy and starting to loose power or some strange rudder growth?
One way to read the above sentence is that you're running a genoa when reefed. Is this the case? How big a genoa are you running?

Lee helm is caused when the center of pressure is too far forward. A reefed main combined with a full genoa can cause that.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2013, 23:29   #4
Registered User
 
stevensuf's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Back in Scotland!
Boat: Gib sea 43
Posts: 840
Images: 10
Re: Excessive weather helm even on reach

full genoa , first reef in main, still getting weather helm, not lee helm, dunno why!
__________________
http://nicnsteve.blogspot.com/

If the pen is mightier than the sword, then my keyboard must be a nuclear missile!
stevensuf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2013, 23:35   #5
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,456
Images: 69
Re: Excessive weather helm even on reach

Overtrimmed mainsail?
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2013, 23:39   #6
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Most weather helm is caused by an asymmetric hull shape for the submerged part of the hull. For otherwise straight hulls, this is caused by heel.

Try to confirm that weather helm is indeed linear with heel. Then minimize heel. Baggy sails cause drag and thus excessive heel and thus weather helm.

Set the auto-pilot, note the average rudder position, then start the engine, put in slow forward and completely furl the genoa. The engine will compensate so you don't stall. Check the rudder position now. The rudder position is a very good indicator of trim. However, a center position normally does not give optimum performance so you need to find the best position by experimenting with trim, checking VMG on the instruments. At optimum trim, note rudder position and remember that as an easy check on trim.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2013, 23:42   #7
Registered User
 
stevensuf's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Back in Scotland!
Boat: Gib sea 43
Posts: 840
Images: 10
Re: Excessive weather helm even on reach

I sat on a reach the other day and let the reefed main out so far that the sail was curving in the spreaders, couldnt let it out any further and was still getting heavy weather helm, on a reach this is, full properly trimmed genny and 1st reefed main, granted the swell was aft on the windward quarter, so it would contribute to the boat turning in the swell towards the wind.
__________________
http://nicnsteve.blogspot.com/

If the pen is mightier than the sword, then my keyboard must be a nuclear missile!
stevensuf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2013, 23:48   #8
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Excessive weather helm even on reach

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
One way to read the above sentence is that you're running a genoa when reefed. Is this the case? How big a genoa are you running?

Lee helm is caused when the center of pressure is too far forward. A reefed main combined with a full genoa can cause that.

Exactly.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2013, 23:52   #9
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: Excessive weather helm even on reach

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
One way to read the above sentence is that you're running a genoa when reefed. Is this the case? How big a genoa are you running?

Lee helm is caused when the center of pressure is too far forward. A reefed main combined with a full genoa can cause that.
He says weather helm, not lee helm.

Steve, are you sure you don't have on too much main sheet? I made this stupid mistake once while reaching and was stumped for almost an entire day by weather helm I couldn't trim out.

I've also found that when the wind gets up, too deep a shape in either sail can cause excessive helm. I understand why this is the case with the main, but with the jib? So get your sails nice and flat. If they bare getting blown out, then that could definitely be your problem.

Sorry to keep asking obvious questions, but is your heel angle under control? If not, keep reefing.

Good luck.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2013, 23:52   #10
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,456
Images: 69
Re: Excessive weather helm even on reach

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Exactly.
Except that the OP was describing excessive WEATHER helm....
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2013, 23:55   #11
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,456
Images: 69
Re: Excessive weather helm even on reach

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post
I sat on a reach the other day and let the reefed main out so far that the sail was curving in the spreaders, couldnt let it out any further and was still getting heavy weather helm, on a reach this is, full properly trimmed genny and 1st reefed main, granted the swell was aft on the windward quarter, so it would contribute to the boat turning in the swell towards the wind.
"On a reach" covers a lot of angles though. Roughly what AWA are you talking about?

Have you altered any of your rig? Maybe moved your masthead aft?

Also, you mention rudder growth - have you actually checked that your rudder isn't a big blob of barnacles?
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2013, 23:58   #12
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: Excessive weather helm even on reach

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post
I sat on a reach the other day and let the reefed main out so far that the sail was curving in the spreaders, couldnt let it out any further and was still getting heavy weather helm, on a reach this is, full properly trimmed genny and 1st reefed main, granted the swell was aft on the windward quarter, so it would contribute to the boat turning in the swell towards the wind.
Letting it out too far is also not good. You will stall it and it will just create drag, hence heel, hence helm. It should not be let out past where the lee telltales start to flop.

Did you try putting on some vang? Do you have loose-footed main? Did you play with the outhaul?
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-04-2013, 00:09   #13
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Excessive weather helm even on reach

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Except that the OP was describing excessive WEATHER helm....

You're right. We lept to the obvious instead of what he actually said.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-04-2013, 00:21   #14
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 4,334
Re: Excessive weather helm even on reach

The obvious solution is to move the center of effort forward--if a double reef doesn't solve it, drop the main--if that doesn't solve it, roll up some genoa--you will go just as fast, be more comfortable, and your autopilot will love you.
__________________
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-04-2013, 00:26   #15
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
No, the obvious solution is to reduce heel.
__________________

__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
helm, weather

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yachts in transit - new system for weather, blogging, diving, walking tracking sail-fish Navigation 13 22-05-2016 16:57
SSB Weather info VirtualVagabond General Sailing Forum 8 15-01-2016 09:40
Study Hall: Correcting Weather Helm Alan Wheeler Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 27 09-08-2014 15:48
North Atlantic Weather Router (besides Herb) leecarlson Atlantic & the Caribbean 7 26-10-2012 22:01
Sea Myths and Sayings Mariners The Sailor's Confessional 5 29-09-2011 14:51



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:00.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.